Workers Can't Sue Postal Officials Over Anthrax, Judge Rules

Someone described Xinh Thi "Kathy" Nguyen as having intelligence connections in Nam in the 1970s. No documentation though. May-be it's just air.

I don't know where you heard this, Khan, but you piqued my interest. I think you're right, she had connections. The evidence fits to perfection. OTOH, there's no smoking gun, but no one would expect a smoking gun.

Read the many news reports, including quotes from various neighbors and friends, and you will see a consistent picture. Consider...

Kathy Nguyen "worked for the U.S. Embassy, and was one of the last evacuees to be plucked from its roof by helicopter when the North Vietnamese attacked the city, said Edith Navedo, 57, Nguyen's friend of 20 years."
Source: New York Post, Oct 31, 2001, http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nypost/87209737.html?did=87209737&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&date=Oct+31%2C+2001&author=DOUGLAS+MONTERO&desc=ANOTHER+CRUEL+TURN+FOR+HOSP+VICTIM
"Nguyen owned a bar in Saigon, and [friend since the 1970s Gina] Ramjassingh said Nguyen told her she was 'working with the Americans' during the Vietnam War."
Source: St Augustine Record, Nov 11, 2002, http://www.staugustine.com/stories/111102/nat_1115994.shtml
"[Neighbor Josefa] Richardson said Nguyen rarely spoke of her past, but said she had worked at the U.S. Embassy in Saigon."
Source: AP, Nov 1, 2001, http://breakingnews.morris.com/terrorism/stories/110101/vic.shtml
"Immigration and Naturalization Service records show she entered the United States in San Diego on May 4, 1975."
Source: AP, Nov 1, 2001, http://breakingnews.morris.com/terrorism/stories/110101/vic.shtml
Comment:The final evacuation from the US Embassy in Saigon was by helicopter on Apr 30, 1975. The date of her entry into the US confirms the story that she was among the last of the evacuees as Saigon was falling.
"Her mother was a teacher, and her family rented rooms to American soldiers. The family had some money, and a house on the water. She came to New York City in the late 1970s, apparently with the help of an American she met during the war."
Source: USA Today, Oct 31, 2001, http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/10/31/anthrax-nyc.htm

So... We know that Kathy Nguyen was among the last group of people evacuated from the American Embassy in Saigon, as the city was about to fall. BTW, her Viet Namese name is reported variously as Xinh Thi Nguyen or Xi Thi Nguyen.

What was that final evacuation like? There's a fascinating account at http://www.franksnepp.com/decent/, from Frank Snepp's book Decent Interval: An Insider's Account of Saigon's Indecent End Told by the CIA's Chief Strategy Analyst in Vietnam.

The ambassador and other high-level officials had refused to prepare adequately for the evacuation, and did not even start it in sufficient time. Why? Partly because of denial of the imminence of Saigon's fall, partly because of fear that evacuation planning would lead the S. Viet Namese army to conclude that the US had thrown in the towel and that the end was at hand, turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy. So they did nothing. And when the NVA was at the edge of the city, there was suddenly a mad scramble to escape.

The CIA seems to have been in charge of the evacuation. It wasn't just Americans who were to be evacuated, of course, but also as many as possible, at that late time, of the Viet Namese who had worked with the CIA and who did not want to take a chance on being treated by the communists as enemy collaborators. Here's a quote from Snepp's website:

"From time to time I stopped by the CIA operations room to listen in horror at the radios as stranded Vietnamese agents pleaded over the circuits for help, begging not to be forgotten. Some would be picked up by Air America helicopters that CIA colleagues and I sent shuttling around the city. Most would be forgotten."

Here's more evidence of the central role of the CIA in the evacuation. From Fall of Saigon Stories, http://www.vietmemorial.org/myweb/fall_of_saigon.htm, a photograph and its caption:

Cia man-indentified by alias "T.D.Latz" help evacuees up
ladder to make-shift chopper pad on last day of war.
[sic - Forgive the errors in spelling and grammar. I think the caption was written by a Viet Namese refugee. I've quoted it verbatim.]

With the CIA not even able to get all the people out who had been of help to the US over the years, there was no room left for random refugees. Without a doubt, almost all of the Viet Namese who escaped at the end were either CIA assets or close friends of somebody influential in the CIA evacuation operation. Kathy Nguyen was one of these Viet Namese who escaped at the end. She, like the others, must have had some CIA connection.

Another interesting fact:

As documented in the St Augustine Record link above, Nguyen owned a bar in Saigon. The CIA frequently worked with Saigon bar-owners, because of their ready access to the seamy side of life and also because of their many contacts. Not all bar-owners worked with the CIA, of course, but this bar-owner worked with Americans in the US embassy and was part of the final CIA evacuation of the embassy.

Finally, look at a couple of quotes from the papers on the secretive life she lived in the days before her illness. Just like the rest, not at all definitive, but they make you go "Hmmmmm":

They discovered that although Nguyen had a bank account, she did not seem to write checks from it. Instead, she relied on postal money orders.
[CDC Chief Investigator in New York, Dr. Stephen] Ostroff did not know at which post office Nguyen purchased them, and he said the usual paper trail most people generate was nearly nonexistent for Nguyen.
"She didn't do that," Ostroff said. "She has a minimal paper trail."
Source: New York Daily News, Nov 11, 2001, http://web.archive.org/web/20011111175953/http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-11-11/News_and_Views/Beyond_the_City/a-131689.asp
There were initial reports that Nguyen worked a second job. City health officals disputed them, but according to NYU's Tierno, who is briefed daily on the investigation, she did have other income.
"She had an outside job and perhaps crossed the path of a terrorist or at least worked with a person who was one," said Tierno. "It turns out she may have had several jobs, she may have been moonlighting."
Source: Boston Globe, Nov 18, 2001, http://web.archive.org/web/20011126121037/www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/322/nation/Anthrax_victim_s_last_days_examinedP.shtm

Excellent follow-up. The connexion seems almost indisputable.

The one mysterie victim has a past CIA connexion. Could be a co-incidence, the connexion was long ago. It is one hell of a co-incidence.

After so many years of her being a good citizen, I doubt that she was whacked by the CIA.

I agree with you.

It sounds more likely that she simply crossed paths with the perp.

Maybe a little bit more than "crossed paths" hmmm?

If Pigpen had been covered instead with anthrax, all who traversed his path could be potential victims of at least cutaneous anthrax.

Yes but she didn't get cutaneous anthrax. What she had was an especially virulent case of inhalation anthrax. She was a strong, healthy person too - "never missed a day of work" etc. - unlike the frail old lady in Connecticut. If there was so much anthrax powder around that a strong healthy person got a very virulent case of inhalation anthrax, where is the trail of other cases - there should have been at least a couple extra cases of cutaneous anthrax. And why are there no spores to be found lying around anywhere she frequented?

Somehow I think Kathy N. crossed paths with the perp or it was a minimal cross contamination of the mail as she did like to smell things.

I think this is almost right. She almost certainly had more than minimal cross-contamination, there isn't evidence of contamination through the mail in her case anyway. I think she had direct contact with one of the perps, maybe she knew one of them. I agree with you that her predilection for smelling things may have been her downfall.

Here is the only theory I can come up with consistent with every-thing we know:

May-be XTN was an unwitting courier. After many years, an old American acquantiance from Nam seeks her out and says he has a small job for her. She was rescued in the last hours of Saigon as it fell, and may have felt that she owed something. She would also have been paid for her work, we know she had some outside job and anybody in her circumstance could use some extra cashe.

So she is given a plastic baggy with envelopes in it. She is warned in no uncertain terms not to remove the envelopes from the bag until the time of mailing, not even to open the baggy until then, and to handle it gently. No mention of anthrax. May-be some cover story like = it's a secret job and finger-prints needed to be avoided. And some assurance that no-one would get hurt.

Following instructions, she goes to a mail-box, opens the baggy and, without touching the envelopes, pours them out into the mail-box. Then... out of curiousity, she takes a big whiff from the empty baggy, as is her wont. No-one had warned her about the empty baggy, they thought the envelopes were sealed tight with tape, and also no-one imagined that she would take a deep breath from the empty baggy. But, as we know, she always liked to smell things. And that's the unfortunate end of her story.

BTW: Why do I say an unwitting courier rather than an intencional accomplice who knew what she had done? Because she did not appear to suspect that she had anthrax. She was very ill, even had a bloody cough, for two days but did not see a doctor for anti-biotics and went to work any-way. The super-intendent who drove her to gospital didnt mention the signs of fear or nervousness that she would have shown if she had suspected what she had.

Khan,one of the main problems with that is this woman-who holds down at least 2 jobs so she can keep body and soul together-is suddenly travelling to Princeton,NJ-by bus,train,or private car,seeking out a mailbox in an unfamiliar town,and mailing some tainted letters....TWICE !

Had there been some unexplained absences from work,the Feds would have been all over it.

<< Khan,one of the main problems with that is this woman-who holds down at least 2 jobs so she can keep body and soul together-is suddenly travelling to Princeton,NJ-by bus,train,or private car,seeking out a mailbox in an unfamiliar town,and mailing some tainted letters....TWICE !
Had there been some unexplained absences from work,the Feds would have been all over it. >>

I don't think any o this is a problem for the theory.

Public transportation between NYC and Princeton is readily available, and fast. She could easily have gone when offduty, the 9 October 2001 letters were mailed sometime during a 3-day week-end. The 18 September 2001 letters could have been mailed on a trip to Princeton Monday evening 17 September. Or mailed Sunday and not postmarked until Tues, USPS has occasional pickup delays.

For that matter, we don't know that both mailings were from Princeton. The theory doesnt even require her to have handled both mailings, altho that would seem logical.

Some-how I dont think << seeking out a mailbox in an unfamiliar town >> would have been much of a hurdle to her. She was an incredibly resourceful woman, with emotional strength - look at her life story.

As for holding down 2 jobs, maybe this was the 2nd job. Or if not, it was just a very parttime moonlighting thing, no-one knew about it. She wasnt working 100-hour weeks, she had time to visit restaurants and such like.

This theory may not be pre-cisely right. But it is a lot more credible than random crosscontamination when no spores are found anywhere else in the area, and she, as a healthy woman, is exposed to enough spores to give her a virulent case of inhalation anthrax, altho no-one else even gets cutaneous anthrax from the supposed spores on the loose.

Also, as has been said earlier, it would be one hell of a coincidence for someone with past CIA connexions to be a random victim of the first-ever anthrax attack on the USA.

Battle Axe, watch out for hidden bias.

If she had a Pakistani name and had Islamic-terrorist connexions from 1975, you'd be all over her.

Let the evidence lead where-ever it leads.

May-be XTN was an unwitting courier.... [intriguing details omitted]

Thank you for posting. I find this theory very plausible. In fact, it is the only plausible explanation I have seen for Kathy Nguyen's having contracted anthrax. Her case is completely different than all the others, and much harder to fathom.

Well,that still leaves us with the very awkward Otillie Lundgren-a pretty much home bound senior citizen,whose mailbox,trash,property,house,etc. all came up negative for anthrax contamination.

I don't see her as a secret agent,somehow !

<< Well,that still leaves us with the very awkward Otillie Lundgren-a pretty much home bound senior citizen,whose mailbox,trash,property,house,etc. all came up negative for anthrax contamination.
I don't see her as a secret agent,somehow ! >>

Concur with you on this. Lundgren and Nguyen are very different:

Lundgren was 94 yrs of age, very old and frail. A few spores could have done her in - low immune system. Nguyen, altho no Spring chicken, was much younger, strong and in the best of health, never missed a day of work. Nguyen must have received a large dose of spores.
Anthrax contamination was found on the mail of one of Lundgren's neighbours, providing a specific route for possible crosscontamination in Lundgren's case. No anthrax spores have been discouvered in Nguyen's neighbourhood or any-where else she was known to frequent.
Since Lundgren was frail enough to have succumbed to a small number of spores, it isn't surprising that there's no trail of spores or other cases around here. But it is surprising that Nguyen's case, with probably a much greater spore exposure, was an isolated incident - with no trail of spores, no other cases, not even cutaneous.

Since Lundgren was frail enough to have succumbed to a small number of spores, it isn't surprising that there's no trail of spores or other cases around here. But it is surprising that Nguyen's case, with probably a much greater spore exposure, was an isolated incident - with no trail of spores, no other cases, not even cutaneous.

The argument is stronger even that that, Khan. There was a trail of spores near Ottilie Lundgren. A spore was found on mail received by one of her neighbors, and that mail could be traced back to the infamous New Jersey postal machines.

There is no "trail of spores" near places Kathy Nguyen went to, no spores at all. As you pointed out, this is very surprising: Contaminated mail was found near Lundgren's house. It would have taken many more spores to infect the healthy 61-year-old Kathy Nguyen than the near-centenarian Ottilie Lundgren. So where are the spores? Why were there no spores found in Nguyen's stomping grounds?

I'm standing firm on the cross contamination.

"Standing firm" in the absence of solid evidence is unwise.

Is cross-contamination conceivable? Yes it is. One would have to be foolish to rule it out completely. On the other hand, one would also have no reasoned basis to take the opposite position and claim that cross-contamination was proven.

So one may ask:

"Is there any concrete evidence for cross-contamination in the Nguyen case?" No, there is none.

"Is there any concrete evidence for a source of anthrax other than cross-contamination in the Nguyen case?" No, there is no evidence of that either.

The known evidence leads to no definitive position on the source of her anthrax infection.

The original consensus of the experts was that cross-contamination was unlikely. The most common view among investigators originally was that she crossed paths with the perps in some way.

Only when no other source of anthrax was found did cross-contamination become the fallback position. There is no hard evidence in favor of cross-contamination as the source.

Bump

<< So, yes this is a good discussion and we need to keep it up until the perp is caught! Do you think one of us will catch him? >>

Yes we need to keep the discussion going.

Rumours r that investigators are looking at online presences.

Forget anthrax for now. For fun, let's look at my Favourite Website, FreeRepublic. There are many FR anomallies, plainly visible to the very careful reader. May-be they're not anomallies, may-be they're just lighthearted amusements, take your pick.

Some of the best are the FR birthday anomallies, where a freeper's sign-up date presages the future in a way that is eerily amusing. Or where a freeper's chosen screen name curiouosly indicates knowledge that he should not have had until much later. Otherwise known as: <<How in hell did they know to pick that sign-up date, or that screen name?!!>>

Here is Anomallie or Amusement the first- The "Clinton's a rapist" Birthday Paradox=

The x-freeper <<Clinton's a rapist>> - such a fun and lighthearted name - signed up on 26 February 1999.

26 February !

26 February 1991 - date of US victory against Iraq in the Gulf War

26 February 1993 - date of first WTC bombing

26 February 1999 - date that "Clinton's a rapist" signed up for FR.

Almost 3 years later, after 09-11-2001, "Clinton's a rapist" and his alter ego "The Great Satan" turned into the most ardent freeper voice promoting the theory that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 09-11-2001 and the anthrax mailings. He was also a vociferous supporter of Laurie Mylroie's theory of Iraq behind the first WTC attack.

What an amazering co-incidence! Or may-be it's not a co-incidence at all ??? He might have had an agenda from the get-go... to focus on Iraq and the WTC and Saddam Hussein. What could this mean?

Was the date meant as an in-joke or is it a bizzare co-incidence? Which shell is the pea under - Anomallie or Lighthearted amusement? Make your pick.

Almost 3 years later, after 09-11-2001, "Clinton's a rapist" and his alter ego "The Great Satan" turned into the most ardent freeper voice promoting the theory that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 09-11-2001 and the anthrax mailings. He was also a vociferous supporter of Laurie Mylroie's theory of Iraq behind the first WTC attack.

Also the chief proponent of the Iraq-did-it anthrax theory.