[Robert_Paulson2]

actually, you are wrong.
the founders were, as far as I know to a MAN...
all members of the lodge.
the masons, that is.

and they are open to ANY religious belief that acknowledged a higher power, and have always been...

that would include some of the religions you reject in your list.
and it has ever been that with the masons.

HOW do I know that?
I do.
You are not a mason I can only guess.

They would NOT agree to the exclusion of what you consider cultists.

Jefferson, did READ the bible... and rewrote it to his image and likeness.
Fundies don't agree or like it. but it is a fact, the founders WOULD have accepted, and DID in their masonic 'religion' ANY higher power and even those you might seek to exclude.

The symbols for that fact, are on every dollar you spend.
There would be no duel with me.... you however?

I think you would be surprized at their attitude towards religionists of any particular stripe. YOU and I clearly have a different world view and you facts are largely different from historical masonic records and doctrines, and covenants.

They were all masons, all pretty much deists and were VERY intolerant of fundamenatlism of any stripe, relative to the culture in which they were born. There WERE what you would today call fundamentalists, Roger Williams STARTED out as one, an evangelical Baptist, who in his later years repented for his conversion of indians...

We are a tolerant, NON religious-sectarian nation... though you are free to worship or not as you choose. THERE are those who want to proclaim this nation a christian one and socially conform our laws to the Christian faith in particular areas.

It will never happen unless Jesus Christ HIMSELF sets it up... the chalcedonians and wall builders do their own twisting of the founder's quotes and writings, particularly patrick henry's speeches that were part of his soundly defeated effort to feather bed, financially, a group of religious supporters.

the "Our nation is not fit to be governed by any but a christian people" type of quotes, are usually the ones related to his attempt to get government to fund his buddies.

the nation, however, REJECTED his attempt to fund religion via the aegis of the state.

push religion in state all you want.
MOST american will fight you and defeat you in your efforts.

NO religion in state or STATE religion.. not ever.

as for the biblical quotes in the supreme court and other federal buildings... so what... quotes from other religions are also there... that does not mean that our government follows the dictums of hammurabi.

the purpose of such quotes is testimony to the efforts of mankind, to be governed by laws instead of the passions of the animal kingdom... and not an endorsement of religion of ANY particular kind.

Glad we can agree on some things...
and firmly disagree on others.
your points are well taken... but I remain unpersuaded...

intransigently I must add.
..robert

[so_real]

I know little of Freemasonry and, as such, you may have placed yourself (assuming you are a Mason) where I have no personal foothold for debate. In my digital research, however, I have bookmarked this site for further reading. In this article Allen E. Roberts, FPS, exposes myths regarding the Masons that have been advanced by Masons and non-Masons alike. Some of the very statements you've made here as fact are exposed as deception by this highly respected member of the Masonic Research Society.

I do not post this to attack you or the Masonic organization, but only to point out that truth and deception are everywhere. Only through careful study and setting aside preconceptions can we hope to set them apart. Statements like: "HOW do I know that? I do." are road-blocks to discerning the truth.

The Jefferson Bible you speak of was titled by Jefferson as "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, Extracted Textually from the Gospels in Greek, Latin, French and English." As I understand, it is akin to a set of Cliff Notes focusing not on the divinity of Jesus but on the moral lessons He taught. As a Christian I believe it was an error for Jefferson to abridge the Gospel in this fashion. However, a blanket statement like he "rewrote [the Bible] to his image and likeness" is misleading and quite untrue. You may investigate further here.

I also agree with you that only a theocracy established, headed, and blessed by God Himself has a chance at succeeding in this world. I have no desire to see mankind attempt a theocracy in the United States and would oppose it myself. It is, in my opinion, doomed to corruption and failure. I also oppose, however, this politically-correct sense of anti-Christian tolerance groomed into the United States over these last fifty years.

The historic evidence is that this nation was Founded by God-fearing men, predominantly Christians, who absolutely desired to protect the religious practices of all other God-fearing men despite the differences thereof (which Washington considered "slight") without instituting a theocracy which they feared above all.

Put aside for a moment what you know or think you know of Masonry; forget the allegations as to who subscribed and did not subscribe to it. Re-read historic literature written by the Founders themselves with a clear eye. I think a whole new picture will emerge for you as to the intents the Founders had with regard to religion. You might even like, or at least respect, what you see.

P.S. Don't be intransingent unless you are guaranteed 100% accurate the first time around :-)