[badbass]

Yes, Germany and Japan were successful. We do seem to have some trouble with their descendents exporting leftwing "hooey" to some extent, at least we don't have to fight them. I see Turkey as the only example of an Islamic society that seems to work to some extent. Maybe there is some hope for the democracy to work. Islam is by definition so anti-independent thought, that it's hard to imagine it coexisting with democracy to any great extent. From what little I know, Attaturk seems to have come up with a sort of separation of mosque and state that is workable.

[Sergio]

Re: Your post #22

I spent 3 weeks in Turkey back in '89. The word I got from the locals was that Attaturk wanted Turkey to be considered part of Europe rather than part of the Near East. Attaturk set off on this goal by making sweeping changes to the country. He outlawed the use of the fez by men. He made it illegal for the clerics to meddle in politics. He made changes so that all government documents would be written using the alphabet as you are reading it here rather than the flowing script of Arabic. He also used the Army to back him up.

In other words, he dragged them, kicking and screaming, from the middle ages to the 20th century in very little time. Those who opposed were crushed by the military.

Given this and the example of Gen. Black Jack Pershing's dealing with the Muslim Moros in the Philippines, it would seem that reason and diplomacy as a means of change in the Muslim world do not work.

Best Regards

Sergio

[Falcon76]

Yes they have gone way too liberal but that I think is as a result of being defeated.

[Falcon76]

I always forget about Turkey! I had an aquaintence who saw terrorists shot down in the street in Turkey, while effective hardly the sign of a healthy republic.