Posted on 11/30/2004 6:21:11 PM PST by betty boop
I completely agree, Eastbound. I'm so glad you enjoyed the article!
Then I'm going to have to read it! Thanks for the suggestion, Taliesan.
You're welcome, bluejean. I hope you will enjoy the article!
Yes, where he takes Aristophanes out to the woodshed. These dialogues could be definitely be staged. Are you aware of anybody who has done this?
Evocative, most certainly. When the early church wanted to strike up a conversation with the world of Hellenistic philosophy, they used the language of Greek philosophy. As Lossky points out, is St Dionysius a Platonist posing as a Christian or a Christian posing as a Platonist? Eastern theologians saw him as the latter.
The Holy Scriptures "tell us truly but not exhaustively," as Francis Schaffer says.
I haven't read an Eastern (Orthodox) theologian who would disagree with that statement. By the way Francis' son Frank converted to Orthodox Christianity some years ago. I wonder what he could tell us about all this.
Truly great choices, Baraonda! I'm rather partial to Gorgias and Timaeus....
Regarding Socrates, the "man who knew nothing": You know the story of how Socrates had gone with a friend to the Oracle of Delphi, and his companion asked the Pythia, "Who is the wisest of men?" and she answered: "Socrates." This was deeply perplexing to him, for he knew that "he knew nothing." Then he realized that this knowledge was what made him the wisest of all men; for at least he knew he knew nothing, unlike everybody else, who imagine they actually do know something, for a certainty. I love that story!
Thank you so much for posting the quotes Plato attributes to Socrates.
Oh my, Old Professor, what a gloomy view! Needless to say (perhaps), I do not share it. Peace, friend.
I'd love to see Gorgias staged. It is definitely an extraordinary work of dramatic art.... especially when Miletus starts making veiled threats at Socrates at the end, or when Polis is making an ass of himself (sort of like a character out of Moliere, as for instance, from "The Physician in Spite of Himself," or "Tartuffe.")
I didn't know that, stripes. It would be enlightening to hear what Frank has to say on these subjects. Thanks for writing! (I still owe you one.)
Why not? If indeed, all is simply mindless operation, where the gloom?
That's one whopper of an "if, indeed," Professor! However, if it is, (as I suspect) a faulty premise, then you can't build truly on it.
Why do you think all is simply a mindless operation?
Thanks for the info.
My impression is that the Orthodox Tradition is much more sophisticated in its Theology proper, that is, the doctrine of God. And because their theologians give a hoot about the distinction, say, between the divine essence and the uncreated energies, they are quick to object to nuances.
You might think that the Christian East has more affinity with Plato, seeing the eventual friendship the West struck up with Aristotle, but they (the East) would not think so.
I say this as a lifelong protestant who loves both traditions (though perhaps both would sniff at me!) and thus has no dog in the fight, since we don't do Theology at all in the protestant tradition. :-)
It is pretty clear he was not.
You sleep, you wake, you evacuate, you sleep...; repeat as necessary.
It was my pleasure. This was an interesting thread. Now I must go to work.
Well of course, Prof. But this concept refers to the life of the body, not to the life of the man. It is so crude a concept that it doesn't even aspire to the life of the animal. At least every animal goes by "principles," as in, e.g., instincts. That is to say, there is intelligence in some form at work. The causes of such do not seem to be explicable in terms of thermodynamics plus natural selection (premised on an "origin" called the common ancestor). Yet those instincts seem to be highly successful interfaces with the natural environment, vastly enabling the survival prospects of the species (and also the individuals). I think that it is astronomically unlikely that this propensity of living beings comes about by way of accident or coincidence.
But the description you give of the routine experience of the physical body as the preeminent feature of a man's life seems to envision a more or less purely automatic system, under sovereign control of autonomic processes, one given to making inconvenient demands. Funny, but you left "eating part" off your list of pesky inconveniences, the cause of the evacuation problem. But even a robot needs an energy source....
But you are not a robot. Neither am I, nor anybody else reading these lines. Here I make an assertion: Human life is not reducible to the "story" of the activity of the physical body. The parts of the physical body, taken singly or in any combination, are insufficient to explain what the "whole" of the body is, let alone what the living man is. JMHO FWIW.
The story of nature tells us there are degrees of consciousness among living beings, each species (perhaps we may also say each individual) seeking to express that which is most proper to its nature, without which survival itself can become an iffy proposition.
Well, these be my thoughts at the moment, going nowhere farther right now. Perhaps they will touch a responsive chord, and you'll come back and tell me what a clueless idiot I am, later on. :^)
I hope you will! Thank you so much, Old Professor, for writing.
Here's my contribution to your (erudite, as always) meditation, from the mouth of Socrates rather than from my own, since I could never hope to match wits with either him or you. I think it expresses some of what you're saying.
The soul when using the body as an instrument of perception, that is to say when using the sense of sight or hearing or some other sense (for the meaning of perceiving through the body is perceiving through the senses)...is then dragged by the body into the region of the changeable, and wanders and is confused; the world spins round her, and she is like a drunkard, when she touches change...But when returning into herself she reflects, then she passes into the other world, the region of purity, and eternity, and immortality, and unchangeableness, which are her kindred, and with them she ever lives, when she is by herself, and is not let or hindered; then she ceases from her erring ways, and being in communion with the unchanging is unchanging. And this state of the soul is called wisdom.Socrates to Cebes Dialogue of Phaedo
Good morning, Betty Boop.
At my present level of understanding, I can't see how creation could be anything other than that. Even man himself, created in the image and likeness of God is a projection of the thoughts of God. And how could that projection become substantial (individualized and seemingly separate) except in a time/space continuum?
He images us. Imagines us, therefore we reside in His mind in a time environment in order that we, as individuals, have a linear direction in which to understand God and our relationship with Him, precept upon precept.
In a sense, could we say that time is an aspect of the Grace of God? For without it we would not be 'individuated' ( Is that a word?) -- having the sense of 'becoming.' Seems that He imagined us first, then gave us time to become in His 'likeness', according to the speed of the trial and error process of how we refine our choices and desires -- as we journey toward the 'likeness' stage.
Yes Eastbound, I think in a certain sense we can say that time -- and space -- are "aspects of the Grace of God." I think this is what Newton was driving at, with his idea of sensorium Dei, that “God constitutes space and time through his eternity and omnipresence.” These, of course, are constituents of a universal field.
In Christian thought, man is imago Dei -- made in the image and likeness of God. This is a profound, world-transforming step "up" from the Platonic idea that man is "microcosm," the image of the Cosmos. It had to wait for the Incarnation of Christ, Who is both God and Man, for such an idea to become intelligible.
I admire your profound insight: "Seems that He imagined us first, then gave us time to become in His 'likeness', according to the speed of the trial and error process of how we refine our choices and desires -- as we journey toward the 'likeness' stage." And He gives us the great help of the power of the Holy Spirit to facilitate this process, this journey.
Thank you so much, Eastbound, for your perceptive and beautiful reply.
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