Posted on 12/01/2004 4:13:32 AM PST by marktwain
I thank you for the well written post marktwain. I think it puts a noose of perspective upon those too liberal to look at both sides of this tragedy. Your description of the Wisconsin area just about mirrors the people and the town I grew up in.
I am new to this forum and I stumbled upon it trying to find out more facts about this incident. Although I sense some "racial prejudices" from some of the posters, I can tell that most of you just want the facts so that there can be some justice done here. At the same time I will not condemned those here who have been racially discriminatory either because it sounds like they may have had good reason to be so. I would just like to have an opportunity to give you a HMONG perspective on this.
I am Hmong from the Vang clan, but I do not know or have any connections with the suspect. Hmong are a tribal people much like the American Indians and thus they take their last names from the clan that they belong too. I live in the Pacific Northwest, but I have been to Wisconsion and Minnesota and have experience with the situations down there. My father was a Hmong Captain in the U.S. Army or better known as the U.S. Secret Army in which he served valiantly and was wounded severely in combat. It is noted that the Hmong were the only group of people in the Vietnam War truly loyal to the Americans and were trusted implicitly, specializing in covert military operations. All the same my father and most of the Hmong people wanted the American Freedoms that were promised and thus served with both Hmong and American soldiers in hopes that Laos and Vietnam could become a country of equal opportunity. This did not happen, and when the U.S. pulled out he and thousands of other Hmong loyal to the U.S. had two choices, execution or move to America. The U.S. was kind enough to offer him this for his service. The plane was too crowded and so he had to leave his mother and father behind. Much later on, my father would begrudgingly allow his younger brother to take his place in a rescue mission to bring my grandparents back to America. My grandparents made it to America, but my uncle was captured, mutilated, and executed.
With help from the Christian church my father settled his family to an all white rural town in Oregon which he raised his 6 children. My father was on welfare and food stamps for 1 year until he was on his feet. He and my mother worked multiple menial jobs just so that they could be self reliant. Unlike what some of the statements posted on here, Hmong are not lazy unappreciative people. The Hmong toiled night and day and had to work harder than most to survive in the harsh mountains of Laos. Eventually my my father settled on a goal and ended up working 30 years for the state, first as a janitor, then finally retired as a supervisor but only made $14.00 by the time he retired, so there was no preferential treatment.
During my childhood all my friends were white and we spent most of the days trekking through the woods, swimming, hunting, fishing, etc… I had a great appreciation for the outdoors and learned to hunt and fish from my father. Throughout most of my childhood in this all white town I remember things in much as the member marktwain described his Wisconsin town. People were cordial and helpful and everyone knew one another. Of course there were a few racists and bullies that I had to contend with, but I felt more sorry for the fat kid or nerd than I did for myself. My father always told me to channel my anger and my energies to assure that those who would judge my character based upon my race would NEVER be right. As long as I knew who I was and worked to get where I was, it didn’t matter. In my eyes, affirmative action serves only to discredit all my hard work and sacrifices and I see it as a weapon of division not equal opportunity.
To make an already too long story short, I am a god fearing conservative who voted for Bush. I got straight A’s in school, went to work at age 14, went to college, bought my own car, bought my own house, started my own business, and yes pay my taxes and go to church. Many of my Hmong brethren have done the same. There are thousands of them living very meaningful lives and they should not be disparaged by the actions of the few that seem to make headlines and leave all of us with a racial wound. I once managed a government subsidized apartment complex where the government would pay all or most of the rent based on need. All the tenants happened to be white and many of them were able bodied middle aged white males. Most of them did nothing, but drink and work on their broken down cars. Needless to say the cops were a common spectacle around the complex as domestic disputes and fights were common place. I worked here for 3 years and had only 1 tenant move out and this was a single mom, who was going on to better things. I left this job in disbelief at the extent of human depravity and sloth. This could have just been an apartment full of Hmong, or blacks, or Hispanics or whatever. It is not a race issue, it is a statement to the failure of a government system and idealistic liberals that believe hand outs are the answer.
How about Hmong gangs? They are becoming more rampant as they become more separated from their heritage and their society due to negative social forces and parents who fail to see the extent of these influences. Look at the recent Columbine shooting, these kids grew up in a good neighborhood and had good parents yet they lost touch with their family and their community. This kind of behavior is not race biased it is a by-product of living in a godless me me me society. If nothing has any meaning other than your whims, then as Nike says, “Just Do It”. It is up to the parents to understand this and keep kids grounded as to what it means to be a good human. In a larger scheme of things we must get back to being one nation under god. Those young Hmong who become criminal gangsters are heavily influenced by rap and MTV culture and are lost to the values of a strong society. The gansters seem to want no part in their heritage or society even though they often have gang names like HP(Hmong Pride). Ironically most of their crimes are committed on their own people. They are criminals like any other gangsters and should be punished harshly.
Do Hmong Hunters have a problem? I have hunted with many Hmong hunters and hunting groups all my life and I can tell you that they do have issues they need to address. The old timers who have hunted in the traditional ways in Laos DO have a problem keeping with bag limits as they seem to go into survival mode when it comes to hunting. This is good in the fact that the do eat EVERYTHING and do not waste game, but it is bad in that they try to harvest everything as well. In Laos, a Hmong family would be lucky if they ate meat more than twice a year as most of their daylight hours were spent tending the fields on the mountain slopes. The older Hmong hunters have a stockpile attitude towards hunting as well as fishing which needs to be addressed. I have found myself un-invited on many hunting and fishing trips due to my adamant intolerance and protest of such practices. This being said I have seen this same problem with other groups of people as well, most recently with the Russian community. It is not a race issue but a cultural issue. People this is America we do things different here, there is no need to kill and stockpile everything that moves in order to survive. It is imperative that the Hmong community and especially the elders MUST address this issue in order to dispel this stereotype. The Hmong do have a problem with unmarked property boundaries but no more than any other hunter I have hunted with. During all the many hunts I have participated in I have not experienced anyone ever purposely crossing into known private property nor have I heard of any disparaging sentiments towards local land owners. The Hmong are historically a peaceful people who have always fled a conflict. Traditional Hmong are among the kindest and most respectable people I know, with deep belief in honor and duty.
I am not sure what exactly happened in the woods of Wisconsin, but I think we should be careful in condemning or stereotyping a group of people over the incident. Lets allow the evidence to present itself before we start condemning an entire race of people. Lets not act like France and forget about the ties that united us. The Hmong and the Americans fought side by side and so we should be able to live side by side.
Accusing a race instead of a perpetrator is not fair and not helpful to discerning the facts..I read his signed statement..He may not realize it but he confessed to first degree murder of some of those killed.
Thanks for this. I have Hmong neighbors and have had Hmong neighbors for a couple of decades. This is reflective of their thinking--they're as shocked and appalled by the actions of one person as we are.
Moral, I thought I should ping you with a link to this article so that you may comment on any posts that follow.
Isn't it possible that the guy in Wis. was just a guy who snapped? And that his behavior has nothing to do with heritage?
Thanks for the article. I think its very important for people on FR to get a little feel of who the Hmong people are. During my time in Laos and working with Hmong people here and in Europe to try to bring a democratic government to Laos, I found them to be just what this writter says they are, kind, generous, brave, loyal and above all honorable. They fought and died along side us for many years in Indo China and are even today the object of unrelenting attacks by the Pathet Lao government. The story this young fellow tells ia repeated across this country. If ever a people deserved to come to America, its the Hmong.
Please elaborate. I do not understand your comments as they relate to anything I have posted. If you would point me to something more specific, we could discuss it.
MEG's talking about the shooter.
The shooter (according to the just released criminal complaint) shot each and every victim in the BACK. His ethnic backround and culture is really not important.
Good post. Very helpful information.
How many Hmong crimes have I heard of in the U.S.? It seems rather absurd to me to extrapolate any meaning from this crime other than party 'X' perpetrated a crime on 'XXXXXXX'.
The facts will come out, but I don't see this as winding up anything but devistating for the perp. If lead would have been flying in two directions, there might have been a case for defense, but this isn't looking good at all.
I've got no ax to grind. Time will tell. I just think this was a tragic event. It's going to turn out extremely negative for everyone connected to it at any level.
I find it interesting that their first reaction is Racism. A Murderer is a murderer. Especially if they tie him in with the 2001 murder of a Hunter in the same area. Shot twice in the Back. Try Serial murderer. Everyone that knows anything about VN, knows about the Hmong. But, that doesn't give a member of the community to murderer people at will.
The old timers who have hunted in the traditional ways in Laos DO have a problem keeping with bag limits as they seem to go into survival mode when it comes to hunting.
And, as someone who studies(d) psychology, I can add that this kind of survival mode is found among other groups in a variety of ways. Many who have endured particularly difficult hardships in their formative years (and this can cover generations), often as a result of war or other disaster, have these hoarding patterns or revert to survival mode in times of stress, even if just for brief periods.
I have to agree with you. This guy is to blame not his culture, it like blaming the firearm for the shooting not the person pulling the trigger.
When the daughter of one of my neighbors was murdered in the course of a robbery, the murderer played the race card. The victim was Hmong--a kindergartener--and the killer was American Indian. He's eligible for parole when he's 106 (this was before Wisconsin had life without parole).
"At the same time I will not condemned those here who have been racially discriminatory either because it sounds like they may have had good reason to be so. I would just like to have an opportunity to give you a HMONG perspective on this."...This was what my first comment concerned...I was agreeing that it was unhelpful..as to the next comment..It was just a comment on my reading of the shooter's official statement to the police..
I do agree the hunting practices from their "culture" cannot be accepted just because it is their "culture" .It is interesting to get the background.
bump for later reading.
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