Is It Morally Acceptable To Hope Anyone Goes To Hell?

The Federalist Patiot ^ | Dec. 6, 2004 | Dennis Prager

[sitetest]

Dear DarthVader,

Thanks for the prayers. I can use all I can get. ;-)

However, anyone who is baptized into the Catholic Church is, indeed, a Christian. Of course, that doesn't mean that they'll get to Heaven, eventually. There are Christians, having been offered the grace of God's Church, who embrace and cooperate with that grace, and enter onto the Kingdom at the end of their days. There are Christians who spurn the grace freely offered them, and should they persist in that refusal of grace to death, they will suffer eternal torment in Hell.

As to being:

"a member of the mystical catholic or 'Universal' body of Christ which cuts across denominations and the many various ehtnicities that are in the world..."

The Catholic Church doesn't entirely disagree. If one is baptized properly, one becomes a member of the Body of Christ, and in some sense, one becomes incorporated into the Catholic Church, if imperfectly, if one does belong to a denomination.

Look, if you don't believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded, then you don't believe something crucial to Catholic faith. If you don't wish to believe that, okay, I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise.

But then, your disagreement with the Catholic Church is fundamental. In some ways, your belief is as incongruent with Catholic faith as that of John Kerry. On the crucial, non-negotiable question of the nature of God's Church, and Authority therein, you do not accept the teaching of the Catholic Church.

As SD says a couple of posts up, "embrace your inner protestantism."

All the best in Christ Jesus,


sitetest

[DarthVader]

Sitetest,

I have become in my faithwalk as the Apostle Paul who was a Pharisee after God healed me miraculously of cancer and high blood pressure in a period of three days. Paul said "I count all things as dung that I may know Christ" What Paul meant was that he regarded all the Jewish and religious teachings he had as refuse or garbage. I like the Catholic Church and in fact still attend. I have been very blessed and I enjoy my parish very much. There are a lot of good things going on there and there are faults as well. But once you have experienced the awesome power of God the Father as I have you will understand.

Being baptized in the Catholic Church, Lutheran Church, Assembly of God does not automatically make you a Christian and I don't care what dogma and doctrine you throw at me. I will disagree with you until the cows come home. Salvation and baptism is a personal thing that someone must act on. Roman Catholics who are true believers are only part of Christ's Body. The same applies all across every denomination:Episcopalian, Assembly of God, Lutheran, Presbetyrian, Methodist etc. There are many unsaved people who attend church too.

The text below from a previous post by Ryt Wing probably states this best:


...is what happened to the millions who lived before the Gospels were preached. Did everybody go to Hell?
The Bible actually talks about this :

Romans 2:12-15

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

This indicates that there may be some people who never heard or knew the truth, yet they did what's right ("do by nature the things required by the law"). Consider also this passage:

Matthew 25:31-46 excerpts

When the Son of Man comes in his glory...He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink... Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?...

The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Note -- the righteous (or at least some of them), are SURPRISED: "When did we see YOU!?!?!?" Yet any Christian in such a situation would surely recognize it from the gospel story. So, as I see it, the ones who are surprised can only be those who never heard (BC or AD), yet did the best they knew. Read on...

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat.. They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Again, these people are suprised. They expected to enter heaven, they thought they served Jesus (ie, they were all Christians), yet they are told they did not. Chilling.

[Marysecretary]

My own thoughts on your query regarding those in heaven sorrowing over unsaved loved ones in hell is that the Bible says there will be no tears in heaven. I believe that with our new, heavenly bodies (wish I had one NOW), we will not experience the things we do here on earth. Our minds will be different and I don't think we'll have memories of the past life here on earth. I don't believe God would make it so that we would agonize over anything in heaven, like we do here on earth. It's a new dimension and a new way of life and of seeing things. Don't know if I'm right but ....

[DarthVader]

"But then, your disagreement with the Catholic Church is fundamental. In some ways, your belief is as incongruent with Catholic faith as that of John Kerry. On the crucial, non-negotiable question of the nature of God's Church, and Authority therein, you do not accept the teaching of the Catholic Church."

I am not like John Kerry at all. I discern and regard John Kerry as an unsaved and unredeemed individual. No one who embraces the things he does or lives like he does cannot be regarded as a Christian.

[Marysecretary]

My thoughts again: People either believed or wouldn't believe in God, the creator, the father,whatever it is you choose to call Him. If they believed in God, they went to "Abraham's Bosom," a 'holding tank' for those believers. When Jesus died, rose and came back, didn't he go into hell and deliver those people who believed in God at that point? He gave them the keys to the Kingdom, as I recollect. Don't worry, God knows His own. Nobody will be in hell who shouldn't be there and nobody will be in heaven who shouldn't be there.

[Marysecretary]

You can't lose your soul or even part of your soul if you have the Lord. You don't fall in and out of grace, my FRiend. Once you are Christ's, you are safe at home. Now, you can reject Him and turn away from Him. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you are in big doo. But don't worry about losing your soul. It's HIS if you've given it to Him.

[Marysecretary]

God is a God of love; He IS Love. But don't forget that He is also JUST. HE doesn't send people to hell. We send ourselves by refusing the gift of His Son.

[sitetest]

Dear DarthVader,

Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences. I will refrain from sharing my own.

"I will disagree with you..."

That's fine. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. In fact, whether you agree with me or not is pretty much irrelevant. I'm hardly the standard for truth.

I'm only interested in comparing and contrasting your beliefs with those required of Catholics. There are fundamental differences, which you yourself admit.

My only interest is making clear that your beliefs do not represent the required beliefs of a Catholic.


sitetest

[Marysecretary]

I believe that people can be saved on their deathbeds. My husband went to visit a pastor who was ill in the hospital. The pastor asked him to pray for the man who was in a coma in the next bed. He went over to him, prayed for him, and the man came out of the coma! He accepted Christ as Saviour and went back into the coma. Now THAT is God's grace. What a wonderful thing that was for my husband. It really built his faith and it made me believe that nothing is impossible for God. He sends people at the right time to the right place and it's not His desire to see anyone perish. We may never know another person's final fate.

Hussein wasn't a religious man either. He pretty much left Christians alone but now they're being hunted down by zealous Muslims. Hard to figure, huh?

[SoothingDave]

In some ways, your belief is as incongruent with Catholic faith as that of John Kerry.

I am not like John Kerry at all. I discern and regard John Kerry as an unsaved and unredeemed individual.

Please, read what sitetest said.

He said your beliefs are incongruent with the Catholic faith, much like John Kerry's are. Nothing was said about whether or not you consider yourself "saved."

The point is that you pick and choose what of Catholicism you wishto hold as true. Kerry does the same. Neither is an approriate resonse for one who considers oneself Catholic.

Catholicism is not a smorgasbord.

SD

[DarthVader]

The things that are required of being a Catholic will not get me or anyone else to heaven. Only knowing Jesus Christ as your savior will. Jesus said "If you continue in my Word and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Why do you refrain from sharing your own experiences? Sharing them only validates the truth of the gospel or they aren't experiences at all. Or is your life in bondage and in darkness? What I am sharing with you is what is required by God if you want to have eternal life. I know the gospel of Jesus Christ and that is the only thing that matters. And that is the only thing that matters to Him.

[DarthVader]

Christianity is not a smorgasboard!

[sitetest]

Dear DarthVader,

"I am not like John Kerry at all. I discern and regard John Kerry as an unsaved and unredeemed individual."

Well, I'm not happy about the external behavior of John Kerry, in a lot of different ways, but I'm hardly williing to judge the status of his soul. However, Mr. Kerry, like you, is a baptized Christian. Adopted into God's family through baptism, the graces of the Church are freely available to him. If he refuses those graces, he will be damned. If he accepts and cooperates with them, he will be saved. Likewise for you. I won't comment on whether you, or Mr. Kerry, accept or reject God's grace. That's above my paygrade by a considerable bit. I hope that you, and Mr. Kerry, do accept and cooperate with God's grace.

Mr. Kerry, like you, calls himself a Catholic, but does not seem to believe that to be a Catholic, one must believe what the Church infallibly teaches. Each of you appear to reject certain non-negotiable Catholic teachings, and each of you appear to accept others. You almost certainly differ in the particulars.

Between you and Mr. Kerry, the other differences are matters of degree, not kind.


sitetest

[Marysecretary]

Yes, that's the way I read it. I don't know the spiritual condition of these people so it's nothing I can really comment about. As I say, God, who knows the end from the beginning, would know if, in future years, they would have received Christ. That's only my opinion, though. I have no scriptural basis for it. It's one of those mysteries.

[Marysecretary]

I think I answered that in another post, Ken.

[sitetest]

Dear DarthVader,

"The things that are required of being a Catholic will not get me or anyone else to heaven."

Well, here we disagree. But more importantly, here, you disagree with the Catholic Church. And that's really my only point. You said on this thread that you're a Catholic, but in reality, you don't believe what is required of Catholics to believe. I understand that you like the Catholic Church, and like your parish, but those aren't actually things required of Catholics.

"Why do you refrain from sharing your own experiences?"

Because I'm pretty firmly an Oprah-hater. Oh, okay, that's a bit strong. An Oprah-disliker.

My own personal experiences are just that, they are personal. There is a time and place for sharing those experiences, and in those times and places, I have generously shared my experiences. However, I'm altogether uncomfortable sharing those experiences in a medium like this. To me, there isn't a lot of difference between sharing here and going on Oprah and sharing there.

And there may be times when that is appropriate.

But not usually.

"Sharing them only validates the truth of the gospel or they aren't experiences at all."

I'm unsure what this means, exactly. Are you saying that if I don't share my experiences, they didn't happen? Or that only in sharing them that one validates the truth of the Gospel? I'd appreciate it if you could rephrase this statement a little more clearly. Thanks.

"Or is your life in bondage and in darkness? What I am sharing with you is what is required by God if you want to have eternal life. I know the gospel of Jesus Christ and that is the only thing that matters. And that is the only thing that matters to Him."

Well, thanks, I appreciate that! Do you count me as "unsaved"?


sitetest

[DarthVader]

I don't believe the Catholic Church is infallible. Only the Word of God and Jesus Christ are infallible. Tell me how infallible they are when they let pedophiles molest children in the priesthood and go unpunished. My priest in one of my parishes when I lived in MD blew his brains out all over the church rectory when he was caught in another incident with young boys. Where is the inafallibility there? Tell me.

[Marysecretary]

Amen, DarthVader. Your words are wise and true.

[DarthVader]

If you believe that being a Catholic and that only being Catholic is the main or only requirement to being saved, and that Catholicism is the only way to Christ then yes I will regard you as unsaved, disobedient to the Bible, and also a heretic to Christianity.

[sitetest]

Dear DarthVader,

"Tell me how infallible they are when they let pedophiles molest children in the priesthood and go unpunished."

You've confused infallibility with impeccability.

As well, not every word uttered by every Catholic, or even by every Catholic priest, is infallible. Infallibility applies only to the authoritative teaching Magisterium of the Church, and then, only in limited fashion.

But, in your failure to believe in the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church, you certainly appear to be similar to Mr. Kerry. And you certainly place yourself outside the requirements of faithful Catholicism.

By the way, where did you live in Maryland?


sitetest