[tjwmason]

i remain interested to know how a club which your need to volunteer in order to join, can then help make the rules that run the club and choose its officers, and can then leave at any time, can be portrayed as an unelected dictatorship

I do find this question to be most interesting, the pro-Europeans should be the ones concerned about the supposed 'democratic deficit' whereas anti-Europeans should be unconcerned, yet in general the positions are reversed.

If one is pro-European, then one supports the notion that there is a legitimate locus of authority above the level of a nation-state. If one also believes in democracy then one should support the democratisation of that layer of government (as one should support the democratisation of any layer of government).

On the other hand, the principle opponents of the E.U. are those who believe that the fundamental form of government is the nation-state; in this case if that nation-state chooses to involve itself in an international body, then the legitimacy of the international body flows from the nation which has engaged in treaties to that end. To democratise an international body makes no sense if one believe that an international demos does not exist.

Thus, if one opposes the European Union on the basis that it draws power from the nation-state, one must still submit oneself to its decisions (as they have been legitimated by the national government), and one should not have a problem with its lack of elections.

[rogermellie]

i know what you mean, there are some bizaare bedfellows in both camps.

personally i feel quite european, if i go to germany, switzerland or the czech republic i feel quite comfortable that i will be treated with politeness and that the same standards of behavior will apply as do at home, rather than somewhere 'foriegn'.

to be honest, if the european parliment were to become more powerful in its scrutiny of the commission i would be more enthusiastic.

as i've said before, the central theme of european states is that they are secular, liberal democracies, apart from speaking different langagues our attitudes are remarkably similar - even the french.