THE GANG OF FOUR
Posted on 12/11/2004 6:49:03 AM PST by Ginifer
Please stop drinking the vodka flavored koolaid.
You don't flavor coolaid with vodka, you use everclear. You flavor jello with vodka or spike watermellons with it. Otherwise you look realistically at the Ukraine and call the Soros spade a Soros spade.
The USA gives warnings only and Putin sends fighter jets?
That's not right.
I think the US is looking at his long term and sees that the Ukraine is very key.
Putin does too. Why? He has already made lots of noise lately about strengtening Russia's military might. The Ukraine as a strong ally to Russia not in our best interest.
Yanukovich is NOT pro-Western. It doesn't appear that Putin is either.
Remember the IRAQ WAR and the crap Russia pulled and is continuing to pull? Remember the IRANIAN NUCLEAR PLANTS that Putin is so kindly helping them with?
Don't get so scared of the Soros boogeyman that you don't see the potentially bigger monster standing on the other side.
The USA gives warnings only and Putin sends fighter jets?
That's not right.
I think the US is looking at his long term and sees that the Ukraine is very key.
Putin does too. Why? He has already made lots of noise lately about strengtening Russia's military might. The Ukraine as a strong ally to Russia not in our best interest.
Yanukovich is NOT pro-Western. It doesn't appear that Putin is either.
Remember the IRAQ WAR and the crap Russia pulled and is continuing to pull? Remember the IRANIAN NUCLEAR PLANTS that Putin is so kindly helping them with?
Don't get so scared of the Soros boogeyman that you don't see the potentially bigger monster standing on the other side.
At one point our government supported the Taliban. Not only Clinton but Bush Jr too. In spring of 2001 he gave them $42 million in direct monetary aid, because they were bringing "stability" to Afghanistan. Boy did that go badly for us. Our government, which is made up of human beings, makes mistakes and some times listens to the wrong advice. This is easily seen by our stances towards Saudi Arabia, PLO, KLA, China against Tawian (which we have told to swallow the One China Policy), Haiti and other areas.
Actually it very much is in our interest. Our interest is a balance of power in Europe, so no one side becomes to powerful. Unless you actually believe that the EU (Fourth Reich) is our friend, giving Ukraine to the EU will permently tip the balance in their favor. It will further put pressure on Russia to either join willingly or be broken up and swallowed. Further more, the EU has already stated that it considers the Caucuses: Turkey, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbajan to be its territory and is eyeing Uzbekistan. Such a move, with Cyprus joining too, will give it total control over the Mediteranian shipping lanes, direct pressure on the Persian Gulf and on the Central Asian oil fields and shipping routes.
Just what do you think we are going to do for oil and other raw resources? The EU is already making threatening noises towards us, setting up the new kernals of the future SS (which if you do any historical reading was a military force composed of almost every nationality in Europe) and is out to undermine us economically.
Here is a hint of what the EU is doing to crash the dollar. Russia and Saudi Arabia are under massive pressure, and Iran has already caved in to not accept the dollar for oil but to either switch hole heartedly to the Euro or a basket of currencies. Allow me to spell out what that means to you and I. If the dollar is no longer the reserve currency for oil purchasing, then there will be a massive sell off of the dollar. A huge quantity of unwanted dollars on the market will create massive inflation and crash our economy. Mean while, the Euro will be in demand, allowing for easy oil purchasing and domination by the EU while for us oil is going to be massively expensive.
Welcome to reality, for 150 years we have tried to maintain a balance in Europe, so has England for 400 years. England is now part of one massive block and we in our knee jerk throw back reactions to Cold War demnetia are about to create our own down fall.
Once this happens, we will see what people like you are saying. Ever wonder why Yushchenko the "progressive pro-abortion, pro EU (not US)" candidate has promised to remove all aid to the US in Iraq? Has already tried to do this? Ever wonder why Jews in Ukraine as a whole voted against Yushchenko, the candidate with so much in common with the French and Brussels?
It was smart, it was also well preplanned. Ukraine is not the US, you don't run down to the local dealer and pick up a couple dozen huge plasma screens. Wait, you can't even do that in the US. This was about as spontenous as all those Chinese and N.Korean demonstrations. As for voilence, what kept the voilence down was a massive military and police presence. The fact that you are ignoring the calls that Yuschenko's lieutenants, like Yulia Tomochenko, were making to storm government and take power or that UNSO (a nazi supporter of Yushchenko) were out in force claiming to have brought their stock piles of weapons, is to bad. But that's the reality.
I don't like the EU either. I understand what their goals are requarding the US. They are not a good thing.
But Russia is not our ally either.
As I have said, I don't know ALL the reasons, but if we are supporting Yuschenko, then there is a VERY good reason.
I have read some of the reasons why, but no, I will not find a link for you. You have the same resources as I do.
The very fact that Russia is favoring Iran and providing the biggest terrorist state in the world with nuclear capability is just almost enough for me.
Then there is the little matter of votes against the war in Iraq and the active behind the scenes subversion of our efforts like being part of warning Saddam, providing military equipment to Iraq during the war. (remember the night vision goggles that were found with Russian manufacture and date on them? how about the GPS scrambling equipment from Russia that was there in violation of sanctions?)
Let's not forget about the Russian part of the emerging oil for food scandal.
But when you add in the consolidation of power, strengthening the military dramatically and in general advancing his personal power while crushing any opposition with those same powers seals it for me.
Did you see today's article about Putin's continued destruction of democracy? Putin Signs Bill Nixing Governor Elections
Russia sending in military power in to the Ukraine should have scared the crap out of you. More attempts of destruction of democracy.
He had no business in there. But Yanukovich allowed and encouraged it. Yanukovich is a known criminal as well.
Putin's plans are something we should be very wary of.
As far as your analysis of the valuation of the dollar and the oil situation, I have heard your views, but I have also heard nearly the opposite view.
Both sides were convinced they were right.
Finally, do you think the only place in the world there is oil is in the middle east? For one thing, we have some of our own.
The EU can fuss, whine cry and complain. They can do some damage to our country economically, but we also have ways to screw with them.
The coalition of the EU is something to deal with, but I think Russia is the baby crying the loudest. If we don't deal with them, we will have a much bigger mess.
Why are calling in so much cyber support?
Having trouble all by yourself?
I disagree with you about the availability to get equipment when you need it quick.
I live in a small town. I am a paramedic and I have been married to a police officer and a fireman.
You would be amazed at how fast you can get whatever you need in an emergency.
The Ukraine is not a third world country. They have electronics and electronic specialists.
We are talking about powerful people there. Yuschenko is a reasonably powerful man. He would have contacts to get stuff like that up.
WHERE IN THE HELL DID I EVER SAY I SUPPORTED STORMING GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS?
Don't attribute that bull to me.
I didn't say it and I don't agree with it. That wouldn't have been the right thing to do. Not if there were other options and there are.
Military and police kept the people peaceful? Please, they may have scared them, but there was no evidence that it was going to get beyond what the Ukrainan police could handle. They were out there for days and I didn't read of a single episode where a protester got out of line.
There was an article just the other day that was from a reporter in the crowd, talking about how peaceful and cooperative everyone was. Almost like family.
But tell me a couple of things.
Do you agree with Russia sending fighter jets, tanks and troops to another country over a disputed election?
Do you think our country or another country should have sent military troops to a peaceful protest in Ohio? Florida? Anywhere in the US?
What country do you think should come in and keep us under "control"?
Yeah and Bush corrected that crap within weeks.
| December 09, 2004 I didn't write the story...just posted it. |
Nope, it's called doing friends a favor on something they might be interested in.
As for "it was all spontaneous", yes all the orange labeled garb and tents were also spontaneous, they just ran out and spray painted it all. What ever.
WHERE IN THE HELL DID I EVER SAY I SUPPORTED STORMING GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS?
You didn't and I never said you did. Reading comprehension tells us I state that Yushchenko's lieutenants did, are you one of his lieutenants? Are you Yulia Tomoshenko?
There was an article just the other day that was from a reporter in the crowd, talking about how peaceful and cooperative everyone was. Almost like family
Yup, why they broke the barricades on several occassions. Sure.
Do you agree with Russia sending fighter jets, tanks and troops to another country over a disputed election?
Do you have a single bit of proof? One photo? Besides some ranting emails mass sent, where is the proof? Hell where are the two divisions that were reported? Seems they all just melted away like the typical MSM garbage, except not even the MSM went this far into BS land.
Do you think our country or another country should have sent military troops to a peaceful protest in Ohio? Florida? Anywhere in the US? What country do you think should come in and keep us under "control"?
Now you're becoming hysterical and I don't need to bother with stupid questions that have nothing to do with anything being discussed. Maybe the martians will come down and monitor our elections, how about their army? Or the Klingons?
As I've said before, in Spring 2001 we supported the Taliban with money too. Was that a good idea? Did you enjoy having $42 million US TAXPAYER dollars going to that Islamic trash?
The very fact that Russia is favoring Iran and providing the biggest terrorist state in the world with nuclear capability is just almost enough for me.
Number one, it's a light water reactor, can not make nuclear bombs out of it. Second, England (our allie), France, Germany and Italy all signed big trade deals with Iran recently.
As for us, we are still defending Saudi Arabia, armed with WMD. PLO just got more taxpayers monies from us. KLA? We've got a lot of terrorist crap still on our dole and we need to clean up that mess now, especially since the Saudies are helping to kill our soldiers every day.
Let's not forget about the Russian part of the emerging oil for food scandal.
Hay, yes there were Russian firms involved. And if we wish to sue them in US court or the Iraqies wish to sue them in Iraqi court, I say, all the power to them. To base our foreign policy and the backing of the Fourth Reich (also equally guilty, might I remind you) on the actions of corporations or individuals, is beyond irrisponsable.
If the EU doesn't get Russia, China will, as a close ally. With Russia as an enemy allied with China or absorbed into the EU, kiss Afghanistan good buy too, or do you wish to trust the islamic Pakistanies?
t when you add in the consolidation of power, strengthening the military dramatically and in general advancing his personal power while crushing any opposition with those same powers seals it for me.
First, he passed the same law that is the law of the land in England, France and Italy, go protest there that they don't elect their governors directly. As for strengthening their military, that's right, with Islam, China and NATO on all borders, they're spend a few billion more, well they're ready to invade DC now. We spend more then the rest of the world combined and you're paranoid of a few billion on their side. Be paranoid of China, whom we are building up every single day into a real threat.
The fact that YOU are ignoring the calls that Yuschenko's lieutenants, like Yulia Tomochenko, were making to storm government and take power or that UNSO (a nazi supporter of Yushchenko) were out in force claiming to have brought their stock piles of weapons, is to bad.
So you did indeed attribute something to me that I did not say.
Wasn't the orange their campaign color all along? I think it was. That would explain that easily. Most of it, yes even the tents were things they probably had anyway. All the scarves, jackets, etc. I think was part of their campaign gear. It may have become much more widespread, but I'm pretty sure they were using it already. So, even orange tents for rallies doesn't seem very sinister to me.
Oh dear. They broke a barricade? The animals. Just stop with that line of crap. We have people do worse than that trying to get into the day after Thanksgiving sales. There was no real violence.
As far as Russian military being there...Do you have proof that they weren't there? I read that they were. I heard on the news that they were. I never heard that they weren't. So what do you know with certainty?
Your last point. My comments were completely on target. How would you like our government bringing in the military to threaten protesters here? We have large demonstrations all the time.
How would you like it if France butted in and sent troops over here because we were protesting one of OUR elections?
It is the same thing.
It was not Russia's business. Not even to threaten to do it.
None of us like that.
But America does provide aid for people in less fortunate lands. That's part of who were are.
Sometimes it bites us in the butt. Sometimes we have friends for life. Sometimes we get a thank you and sometimes we don't.
However what we DO know is that as long as Bush is President, if they send us planes turned into missiles, we bomb them into nothing but plasma on a cave floor.
If Saudi Arabia does the same thing, they will get the same treatment.
Don't even start that the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Their ORGANIZATION and TRAINING CENTERS were located in Afghanistan. If a British terrorist were to have participated in that attack would you have had us bomb London?
My personal feeling about Saudi Arabia is much the same as yours, but we have to go on LOGIC and FACTS.
Not emotion.
Iran
Surrrrre, just a light water reactor.
That's why the whole world is going wild over the danger posed by Iran.
To get rid of all of the related sites in Iran we would have to hit 350 targets according to current estimates.
BTW, at least one of them is a heavy water plant.
Trade
So what if France and Germany and Italy signed trade deals? Free trade mean anything to you? We trade with China. We trade with France, Germany, and Italy etc.
Trade in some ways will equal control. We stop buying, they lose. We know how to put economic pressure on countries we trade with.
Russia
My problem with Russia has much more to do with all the other stuff than just the OFF scandal.
You wrote.. If the EU doesn't get Russia, China will, as a close ally. With Russia as an enemy allied with China or absorbed into the EU, kiss Afghanistan good buy too, or do you wish to trust the islamic Pakistanies?
So, Russia goes to EU = Russia is an enemy.
Russia allies with China = Russia is an enemy
I understand all that. Do you?
RUSSIA IS OUR ENEMY REGARDLESS. Physically aggressive against us? NO. But they are not our ally. What else would you like to call them?
So remind me again why we would want to support RUSSIA'S candidate in the Ukraine?
I have never said that I think Russia is going to attack the US.
I am not paranoid. Again, you are attributing something to me that I did not say. I also say France is our enemy but I don't think France will invade.
But they can work against our interests as Russia seems to be doing as often as possible.
As far as Putin is concerned, this is MUCH different than normal established government in Great Britain, France, Germany etc. Putin is weakening democracy in Russia.
He is taking voting rights away. He is weakening voices.
What would you do if Bush decided on January 21 that he would no longer allow us to vote for our state governors? And before that he made other decisions that gave him enough power to do just that?
That has been exactly what Putin has been up to.
You do know that the Bush Administration is now saying they are going to have to take a hard line with Russia now, right?
Democracy and anarchy are not the same thing. Russia under Yeltsin was falling into anarchy. Mafia dons grabbed national assets (and for a bribe got Western media/governments to proclaim them "reform minded oligarchs"), Islamists started to carve local fiefdoms with Sharia law and slave trade. Local cliques started to ignore national laws and to enter into treasonous deals with foreign powers.
Putin HAS to centralize power and to purge criminals in order to establish the legal order. Without that no real democracy or even monarchy is possible. He does what Charles de Gaulle did by establishing the Fifth Republic.
And, what needs to be repeated the HUNDREDTH time - the appointment of the local executives from the center plus voting through the party list is a standard thing in many Western European countries!
Russia must make the state stronger in order to survive. And so the powers which challenge this effort, challenge Russia's very survival.
Okay. That post makes more sense than any I have had posted to me yet.
I can understand that better.
It still seems odd that he takes away voting and that makes things better for the people.
So you are saying to strengthen democracy he must first take some voting rights away? I don't understand that.
I do get what you are saying about anarchy, but things don't seem all that chaotic there except for the Chechens.
Have they been in political disarray? I mean serious disarray? Or more like Tom Daschle's senate type disarray?
I will pose the same question to you though. What would happen if Bush tried that here?
We would ALL be ready to charge the White House and drag him out to .......wherever.
You said....
And, what needs to be repeated the HUNDREDTH time - the appointment of the local executives from the center plus voting through the party list is a standard thing in many Western European countries!
But that's not better is it?
If we are the most successful country ever, why would we ever want to support a system that never seems to really thrive. Not like we thrive anyway.
Apparently the Bush administration doesn't support it and neither do I.
Although your explanation did help me understand things a bit better.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.