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Welsh Guards seek justice for Redcap killings (US Troops vindicated)
UK Telegraph ^ | 12/12/2004

Posted on 12/11/2004 11:26:43 PM PST by Rockingham

British military thinking, Lt Col Bathurst conceded, had changed in Iraq, moving closer to the American concept of overwhelming force. Orthodox peacekeeping would, he said, "fail from the outset. Strength is respected here. If anything, we've shifted more than the Americans."

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: iraq; redcap; redcapkillings
British officers in Iraq have often been reported as criticizing American troops as trigger happy and confrontational with the Iraqis, simply not as professional and experienced as the British. American comments in response have usually been restrained. The issue was long unsettled, but it now seems that the Brits have recognized that, well, the Americans were right after all, even in their understanding of the Iraqi mentality.
1 posted on 12/11/2004 11:26:43 PM PST by Rockingham
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To: Rockingham

we may not have enough troops in Iraq.

but when we go after someone, they know that one American soldier is worth about 50 Iraqis. Just look at the casualty counts.

Of course to the American public, American soldiers are priceless.


2 posted on 12/11/2004 11:38:11 PM PST by MikefromOhio (29 days until I can leave Iraq for good....)
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To: Rockingham
Americans don't suffer fools gladly. 'Stop that b@st@rd!' is likely to get a response from US troops. And American officers are pretty responsive to the civilian leadership...

/john

3 posted on 12/11/2004 11:40:53 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (D@mit! I'm just a cook. Don't make me come over there and prove it!)
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To: Rockingham

Sooner or later they all come around.......


4 posted on 12/12/2004 12:05:35 AM PST by stm
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To: Rockingham

I guess nothing's changed since the confrontation between Coningham and Patton.


5 posted on 12/12/2004 12:08:12 AM PST by Terpfen (Gore/Sharpton '08: it's Al-right!)
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To: Rockingham

Sounds like the Brits were stuck in WWI mode, which lost them a lot of the Middle East and a lot of British troops in the process.


6 posted on 12/12/2004 12:10:19 AM PST by anymouse
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To: Rockingham
Was it Ronald Reagan who said "Peace - through superior firepower" or something along those lines?

That's the way it works. Just ask a bunch of people in Fallujah. :-)

7 posted on 12/12/2004 12:12:11 AM PST by Allegra (8 days until I'm home!)
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To: MikeinIraq
British military thinking, Lt Col Bathurst conceded, had changed in Iraq, moving closer to the American concept of overwhelming force.

Hell has officially frozen over.

8 posted on 12/12/2004 12:18:04 AM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: Rockingham
Strength is respected here.

I imagine writing citations doesn't work too well.

9 posted on 12/12/2004 12:22:14 AM PST by Moonman62 (Federal Creed: If it moves tax it. If it keeps moving regulate it. If it stops moving subsidize it.)
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To: Terpfen; anymouse

The British like to see themselves as a wise Greece to America as a powerful but inexperienced Rome. But often the British act like a fussy, elderly, out of touch uncle with delusions of grandeur second only to the French. Or as my mostly Anglophile great-grandfather in Dublin is reported to say: "Even when the British are not in charge, they insist on believing that they ought to be in charge."


10 posted on 12/12/2004 12:25:56 AM PST by Rockingham
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To: Terpfen

Nothings changed since the American Revolution......


11 posted on 12/12/2004 12:28:10 AM PST by Route101
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To: Rockingham

Agreed.

Must've hurt their pride when they wound up ineffective and exhausted after WW2, while America took the lead.


12 posted on 12/12/2004 12:36:31 AM PST by Terpfen (Gore/Sharpton '08: it's Al-right!)
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To: MikeinIraq
....."we may not have enough troops in Iraq".....

I keep hearing that remark and we keep kicking their butt. When the war started, we had the 4th ID stuck in Turkey and we still kicked their butts in record time. I remember the quotes that people will be reading about "Franks' plan for a hundred years because it was so successful.We actually had overwhelming force, but half were stuck in Turkey.

When I tell people that we have "only" lost 1000 in the war, they say I'm cold hearted and don't care about the soldiers. That is NOT true, but only a comparison to previous wars. I have to wonder how America would hold up if we lost the kind of numbers we lost on D-Day. I would like to have more troops, but in reality they would just be more targets. The main thing is to let the troops come home when their time is up. Their can't be anything worse than expecting to go home and being told you can't. I also think it's time for the Iraqi's that are joining the army to step up. They can't keep running away when the sheite starts and expect us to take the brunt. That was the problem(1 of them) in Nam. Their was some brave, but most wouldn't fight like they should and we just got weary of loosing men for nothing. The Iraqi's need to be told daily how lucky and blessed they are for this once in a lifetime opportunity.

13 posted on 12/12/2004 12:37:13 AM PST by chuckles
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To: Rockingham
Get some!

Let's rock! - Anon US Grunt

14 posted on 12/12/2004 12:39:27 AM PST by 506trooper (What-ev -eeerrr)
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To: Rockingham

BAD TITLE... You should have used the original title
because the story here is much more important than the
petty squabble you focus on.

Another Terrorist Stronghold is about to be Re-taken
by the Brits this time.

Worth a read.


15 posted on 12/12/2004 12:40:05 AM PST by konaice
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To: chuckles

only US troops would be able to handle a job of this size with the numbers on the ground. It is that simple.

Of course it would be ideal to have a few more thousand or so, but the job is getting done either way.

By comparasion, the Soviets would have used about 300,000 troops to do the same job.....


16 posted on 12/12/2004 12:40:52 AM PST by MikefromOhio (29 days until I can leave Iraq for good....)
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To: Rockingham; MikeinIraq

In life or death matters, overwhelming force and an itchy trigger finger is what has kept this great nation alive for over 225 years


17 posted on 12/12/2004 12:58:23 AM PST by MJY1288 (HOUSE CLEANING AT THE STATE DEPT. AND CIA IS IMMINENT)
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To: konaice

The full article was posted earlier, which is how it came to my attention.


18 posted on 12/12/2004 1:04:11 AM PST by Rockingham
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To: Rockingham
CAMP DOGWOOD, Iraq — The much-hyped conceit about Britain's soft military touch in Iraq vanished on a road south of Baghdad one November morning, when an Iraqi car accelerated toward a British checkpoint and a young gunner fired a blizzard of bullets through its windshield.

The soldiers from Scotland's Black Watch regiment didn't stick around to determine whether the dead driver was an aspiring suicide bomber or just impatient to get through the backed up traffic.

In postwar Iraq, contrasting images have percolated through media coverage of the alliance: the martial Americans looking to crush the insurgency through force and the world-weary British, choosing accommodation over provocation. The inference was that British soldiers were better suited, by tactics or temperament, than Americans to cope with the insurgency here.

The October deployment of the Black Watch to these badlands controlled by Sunni Muslim extremists provided the first chance to compare the two countries' operating styles under the same level of danger.

Until the Black Watch moved north, the British military had been operating exclusively in southern Iraq, where the violence has never matched the mayhem in the American-occupied sector around Baghdad. The relative calm allowed the British to adopt a less bristling posture on patrol, to wear their soft regimental berets instead of Kevlar helmets and keep their weapons lowered rather than peer at Iraqis through gun sights.

It also gave rise to a certain smugness among British officers and media, which cast the contrast as one between the "heavy-handed" American approach and the less hostile tactics of "the lads." There were jokes over beers in Basra that, to an American, the concept of winning Iraqi hearts and minds meant one bullet to the heart, one to the head. The British media even coined a phrase to describe the British style: "softly, softly."

The Black Watch tried to bring that culture north with them when they merged operations with the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit based south of Baghdad in a deployment that ended Saturday.

The British began the assignment patrolling in their berets. They handed out leaflets in Arabic explaining they were a "Scottish" regiment in case Iraqis mistook them for Americans, and proclaimed they had only come to help build a safe and free Iraq.

Insurgents responded with two suicide car bombings and a roadside bomb in the first week of operations, killing four British soldiers and gravely injuring two.

The shooting of the Iraqi driver at the checkpoint occurred just an hour after the second car bomb had blown the legs off two of the Black Watch gunner's colleagues.

"The threat here is at the other end of the spectrum from what we faced in Basra," said Black Watch Capt. Stuart MacAulay, sitting on the edge of a bunker at Camp Dogwood with a map of the area spread in front of him.

"After the suicide bombings against us, I went to an American soldier I know here and put my hands up. I said, 'I confess, I was one of those who sat around in Basra criticizing your approach.'

"And I'm embarrassed that I criticized American tactics without ever being here and without having met them."

Excerpted from the LA Times. More here: British Way in Iraq Yields to Harsh Reality

19 posted on 12/12/2004 1:06:10 AM PST by saquin
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To: MikeinIraq

By comparasion, the Soviets would have used about 300,000 troops to do the same job.....



and lost half of them. in retreating.


20 posted on 12/12/2004 2:08:12 AM PST by Robert_Paulson2 (real republicans WIN.)
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To: Rockingham
British officers in Iraq have often been reported as criticizing American troops as trigger happy and confrontational with the Iraqis, simply not as professional and experienced as the British

I attended a senior course with a British Wing Commander. We discussed at length the British policy of only allowing lethal force after lethal force was employed. American policy only calls for lethal intent.

The British are on the road to adopt the American venue. Why?

Some time ago, several British SAS agents raided a senior terrorists home. The agents had him surrounded, but could not used their weapons unless he shot first. As the terrorist went into his jacket and pulled out a pistol, the SAS agents had to stand there until the terrorist shot at them.

This is a true story.

Fortunately for the SAS, the terrorists bullets flew by their heads, and then the SAS killed him. It could have just as easily resulted in 2 dead SAS agents before the others could have used lethal force.

If it had been Americans raiding that house, the terrorist would have been dead the second he went for his gun.

In any case, may God Bless the British. Our first enemy, but our last friend.

21 posted on 12/12/2004 4:22:30 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: chuckles

What we dont have enough of is fresh troops for rotation. I have it pretty easy myself, but some units have been really getting hammered with their deployment schedule.


22 posted on 12/12/2004 4:41:39 AM PST by wingnutx (tanstaafl)
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To: Rockingham

In some societies, might does indeed make right – and the Arab World is one of those societies.


23 posted on 12/12/2004 4:49:49 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Robert_Paulson2
Scotland's Black Watch isn’t known for having a gentle approach to war. I believe they were the ones who conducted the last bayonet charge – in Iraq:
The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders came to bail out a couple ambushed Land Rovers. They fixed bayonets and engaged in a bloody, three hour, hand to hand battle with over 100 of al-Sadr's thugs, storming fortified mortar and firing positions, killing over 20, capturing another 9, and taking no casualties.

As one blogger (Maj. Mike) posted – “There will always be an England, as long as there's Scots to do their fighting for them.”

24 posted on 12/12/2004 4:58:56 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Rockingham; Admin Moderator
Please use the original title on articles, per FR rules:

Welsh Guards seek justice for Redcap killings

25 posted on 12/12/2004 5:06:48 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: Route101
Nothings changed since the American Revolution......

Well, we have cell phones now, but other than that...

;-)

26 posted on 12/12/2004 5:10:58 AM PST by Allegra (8 days until I'm home!)
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To: Rockingham

Maybe it was the murder of Margaret Hassan(a Britain) that finally made them see the light. She treated them with a velvet glove for 30 years and her reward for being good to Arabs for 30 years was her being taken out by them. Arabs only understand strength. That's how Sadam stayed in power.


27 posted on 12/12/2004 5:12:19 AM PST by LoudRepublicangirl (loudrepublicangirl)
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To: MikeinIraq

Are you getting short yet?


28 posted on 12/12/2004 5:13:20 AM PST by RaceBannon (Arab Media pulled out of Fallujah; Could we get the MSM to pull out of America??)
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To: vbmoneyspender
Hell has officially frozen over.

It happens more often than one might think . . .


29 posted on 12/12/2004 5:23:39 AM PST by geedee (History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.)
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To: RaceBannon

extremely....


30 posted on 12/12/2004 5:24:49 AM PST by MikefromOhio (29 days until I can leave Iraq for good....)
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To: RaceBannon; MikeinIraq
I'm shorter! Neener, neener!

But I'm coming back, so Mike wins, really....

31 posted on 12/12/2004 5:44:01 AM PST by Allegra (8 days until I'm home!)
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To: Allegra

But I'm coming back, so Mike wins, really....




you never know man....I am sure I will find myself in SWA again at some point....


32 posted on 12/12/2004 5:49:31 AM PST by MikefromOhio (29 days until I can leave Iraq for good....)
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To: Allegra

But I'm coming back, so Mike wins, really....




you never know man....I am sure I will find myself in SWA again at some point....


33 posted on 12/12/2004 5:49:32 AM PST by MikefromOhio (29 days until I can leave Iraq for good....)
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To: SkyPilot
Hostile Intent vs Hostile Act.

We may act in either case and until recently, the British had no authorization to act when observing Hostile Intent.

What British Wing Commander. RAF? From where?
34 posted on 12/12/2004 7:35:43 AM PST by Gunrunner2
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To: Rockingham

Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!


35 posted on 12/12/2004 7:41:06 AM PST by hershey
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To: Rockingham

Bump for power.


36 posted on 12/12/2004 8:46:36 AM PST by jokar (On line data base http://www.trackingthethreat.com/db/index.htm)
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