Posted on 12/22/2004 7:05:54 AM PST by Graybeard58
With all the accolades heaped on Robert Ziegler last night, it looked at times like his bosses were giving him a commendation rather than firing him.
Robert Ziegler, right, hugs Papillion-La Vista High Principal Jim Glover after being fired by the district's school board Tuesday.
Ziegler, 24, a Papillion-La Vista High School math teacher, was described as a "a marvelous young man," "an asset to the community," "honest, candid, capable."
"I hope my son can turn out to be as fine a gentleman as Mr. Ziegler," said Rick Black, an assistant superintendent for the Papillion-La Vista schools.
But Ziegler's bosses also said he repeatedly disobeyed their orders to stop preaching and start teaching.
Black and two other administrators said Ziegler had repeatedly talked about his personal religious beliefs in class, triggering complaints from students and a parent, and would not stop, even after his bosses told him it could cost him his job.
After taking testimony from the administrators and from Ziegler for two hours and 40 minutes Tuesday night, the Papillion-La Vista School Board voted 6-0 to terminate Ziegler's teaching contract on grounds of insubordination and unprofessional conduct.
Board President Valerie Fisher said the evidence was "clear." The board deliberated about 50 minutes.
Afterward, Ziegler said he would not challenge the decision in court. He did not have a lawyer, and he called no witnesses.
About 75 people - including some of his family members from the Riverton, Neb., area - attended the special hearing, which Ziegler requested to plead his case to the board.
Ziegler was a second-year teacher who got his bachelor's degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Ind. Bethel is an evangelical Christian college affiliated with the Missionary Church.
At the hearing, he told board members that his case was their opportunity to "make a stand for God."
"You're either for him or against him" he said.
Ziegler said that as a teacher he saw 120 students a day, many with "issues and worries" that were barriers to learning. By giving up their cares to Jesus, the students would be free to learn, he said.
The district's lawyer, Kelley Baker, however, asserted that the law clearly prohibits teachers from imposing their religious beliefs on students and from praying with or in the presence of them.
In a legal brief for the board, Baker wrote that school districts that fail to stop improper practices regarding religion can be held liable for a teacher's actions.
"School administrators have both the right and the obligation to direct teachers not to engage in such activity during school, and to stop it if they are already engaging in it," Baker wrote.
Jerry Kalina, an assistant principal at the high school, testified that a co-teacher from Ziegler's classroom first reported Oct. 4 that Ziegler was talking to students about his religious beliefs in class.
Ziegler was told to stop, but the co-teacher reported on Nov. 1 that he was doing it again, Kalina said.
A few days later, a student came to Kalina's office and said Ziegler was talking about his faith and that it upset her, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler had stopped her in the hall and asked if he could pray for her. She told him she felt uncomfortable while he prayed.
The girl's mother complained on Nov. 8 that she expected her daughter to learn math, not religion, in the class, Kalina said.
Kalina said he again told Ziegler to stop.
He said Ziegler was encouraged to talk to his minister and to contact former Cornhuskers receivers coach Ron Brown to get advice on how to juggle his beliefs and his teaching duties.
On Nov. 16, a student again raised the issue of Ziegler speaking about religion in class, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"
The next day, a teacher reported that a student was not doing well in algebra because she felt uncomfortable asking Ziegler for help, Kalina said.
Ziegler was placed on administrative leave, with pay, on Nov. 18.
Kalina testified that he would "absolutely" like to have Ziegler back in the classroom, but only if he met one condition: "That he stop talking about Jesus Christ."
"My opinion is Mr. Ziegler was hired to teach math," he said. "And math instruction must come first."
Ziegler testified that his faith was too strong to set it aside.
"What they are telling me to do is in direct contradiction to what my authority, my God, is telling all believers to do," Ziegler said.
He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods.
Jim Glover, the principal at Papillion-La Vista High School, said Ziegler wasn't the first teacher he'd seen with strong beliefs.
"Over the last 32 years, there have been a number who have struggled as Rob has struggled. All were able to eventually make the separation," he said.
School board member Jim Thompson said that in eight years on the board, the hearing was the "toughest" meeting he'd attended.
Thompson said he hoped Ziegler could find a teaching job where professing his faith is "not only legal, but encouraged."
Cassie Young, 16, a student in one of Ziegler's pre-algebra classes, was among several students who left the hearing teary-eyed after the board announced its decision.
Young said the decision was "one more way of kicking God out of school."
"The law of man is wrong, and one day everyone will know that," she said.
OBB - "So you ARE saying that a teacher who gets canned for cussing at his students has a valid constitutional case to be made."
JFK_Lib - Nope, didnt say anything of the sort.
OBB - Sheesh. Why have I been wasting my time debating you?
JFK_Lib - Because you have severe problems with reading comprehension and critical thought?
You waste your time just breathing.
Of course they are, Constitutional jurisprudence rquires neutrality between the secularists and religion.
"That's right. So when you tick off the employer... he can fire you. Regardless of what your rights are. "
What do you think it means in the First Amendment when it speaks of our rights? That they are optional if you happen to work in a school? What other jobs do you exempt from the Bill of Rights?
ROFLMAO!
You really are special, arent you?
So, your employer can't prevent you from, say, campaigning for John Kerry or trying to convert your co-workers to satanism during business hours, so long as you do your work adequately?
Assuming he was successfully going his job, does he have the right to hold a political rally on school grounds?
> Nope, didnt say anything of the sort.
Yes, you did. Everyone has the constitutional right to free expression. Accordign to you, the governemnt can never, ever put any sort of restrictions on the expression of it's employees. Thus, they can't restrict a teacher from cussing.
> You waste your time just breathing.
Abuse-button-worthy.
> What other jobs do you exempt from the Bill of Rights?
All of them. Employers rights outweigh employee rights in such matters. Do you have the right to carry an AK-47 over your shoulder as a teacher?
"Which he deserved, now if they would only treat the secular humanists teaching moral relativism the same it would be a much better country."
Dude, that is the trick. This attempt to silence this teacher and other Christian teachers is NOT about properly educating students; it is about clearing the way for the ateists and secular fundamentalists to have free reign without response.
They will never shut up the secular atheists; that is WHY they are silencing the Christians.
I am sure they appreciate your assistance.
They can't fire you for being a member of a certain religion, sure, but they can fire you if your religious practices at the workplace conflict with your job requirements etc.
I have friends who work for the Federal Government who are not allowed to be involved in political campaigns due to their positions.
I think JFK is broken.
You'd be surprised at how tough it is to fire a government employee. That has to do more with their unions than with the Constitution, though.
OBB - "No? So... if you took a civil service job, and spent the first three month at home praying to your patron god Teveeandbeer, they couldn't fire you?"
JFK_Lib - Apples and oranges, BB. B eing absent from work would be the firing offense duh.
Your ability to ask irrelevant and pointless questions is well practiced I see.
OBB - More realistically, if you are a member of the US armed forces and you park yourself in front of a CNN camera crew and start complaining about your senior officers, they couldn't do anything about it?
JFK_Lib - Military members fall under special sections of law stripping them of many if not all of their rights, as they are government property.
Hehe, any more stupid questions?
You *really* need a wakeup call.
OBB - "You *really* need a wakeup call."
JFK_Lib - You really need a reading comprehension class and some critical thinking might help too, but I doub t you could follow it all.
I see this as falling into the category of a teacher who uses class time to advance his personal causes. I'd be just as annoyed if this was some hippie teacher going off on the evils of the Bush administration when they should be teaching Chemistry or whatever.
"So he can cuss. I'd like to see that put to the test. "
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! ! ! !
You really cannot read, can you?
I said that was irrelevant.
"Assuming he was successfully going his job, does he have the right to hold a political rally on school grounds?"
Have you beenkeeping up with events at Duke?
Apparently the government is not supposed to fire them for that.
But not if you are a Christian, according to them, who have no rights.
Christians do have prerogatives over other cults/faiths.
"Wherever did you get that idea from? The Constitution protects all religions equally."
I did not say anything about not protecting other faiths. Don't you read? As a matter of fact, it is the Christian faith that protects other religions. However, I would not expect to be protected if Muslims or others predominated.
Back to the original posting. The founding fathers and most founding documents refer to Christianity, the Christian faith, etc. That's where prerogative comes from.
The First Amendment was clearly understood and explained by the man who wrote it and the man who first applied it as law. Fisher Ames wrote the First Amendment. He also wrote that the Bible should always remain the principle text book in America's classrooms. John Jay, original Chief-Justice U.S. Supreme Court, said it is the duty of all wise, free, and virtuous governments to help and encourage virtue and religion.
Governor Morris of Pennsylvania was the most active member of the Constitutional Convention. The Constitution was penned by this man who was head of the committee which created the final wording. He spoke 173 times advocating that "education should teach the precepts of Christianity and the duties of man towards God."
You know... I give up on you. You're just very, very sad. I wish you the best in your efforts to assure that employers cannot fire anyone anywhere for any reason ever.
"All of them. Employers rights outweigh employee rights in such matters. Do you have the right to carry an AK-47 over your shoulder as a teacher?"
*snort*
This is about freedom to express religous beliefs according to the Frist Amendment, not toting firearms.
You just cant follow a line of thought.
Is English your first language?
I think its a good idea, if you don't amend the Constitution but don't urinate on it.
PS: I hate playing the role of the moderate, I'm a right wing extremist.
"They can't fire you for being a member of a certain religion, sure, but they can fire you if your religious practices at the workplace conflict with your job requirements etc. "
Then what does the First Amendment mean if anything today as it specifically prevents the government from infringing right to free speech?
As a Christian he is torn between two principles. One is the requirement to testify to the truth and not to deny God. The other is to obedience to authority which is in itself testifying to God because all authority is from God. The exception to the obedience to authority is when obedience to God supercedes.
The same argument leads to:
As a Moslem he is torn between two principles. One is the requirement to testify to the truth and not to deny Allah. The other is to obedience to authority which is in itself testifying to Allah because all authority is from Allah. The exception to the obedience to authority is when obedience to Allah supercedes.
Likewise how does:
Determining when that occurs may be different for different people depending on how God is speaking to that person. When a Christian decides that God is calling him to be disobedient he is considered as having taking a stand because he understands he is subject to the penalties/punishments that the law requires.
apply to Andrea Yeates or Joan of Arc (who killed many more people)?
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