Posted on 12/22/2004 7:05:54 AM PST by Graybeard58
With all the accolades heaped on Robert Ziegler last night, it looked at times like his bosses were giving him a commendation rather than firing him.
Robert Ziegler, right, hugs Papillion-La Vista High Principal Jim Glover after being fired by the district's school board Tuesday.
Ziegler, 24, a Papillion-La Vista High School math teacher, was described as a "a marvelous young man," "an asset to the community," "honest, candid, capable."
"I hope my son can turn out to be as fine a gentleman as Mr. Ziegler," said Rick Black, an assistant superintendent for the Papillion-La Vista schools.
But Ziegler's bosses also said he repeatedly disobeyed their orders to stop preaching and start teaching.
Black and two other administrators said Ziegler had repeatedly talked about his personal religious beliefs in class, triggering complaints from students and a parent, and would not stop, even after his bosses told him it could cost him his job.
After taking testimony from the administrators and from Ziegler for two hours and 40 minutes Tuesday night, the Papillion-La Vista School Board voted 6-0 to terminate Ziegler's teaching contract on grounds of insubordination and unprofessional conduct.
Board President Valerie Fisher said the evidence was "clear." The board deliberated about 50 minutes.
Afterward, Ziegler said he would not challenge the decision in court. He did not have a lawyer, and he called no witnesses.
About 75 people - including some of his family members from the Riverton, Neb., area - attended the special hearing, which Ziegler requested to plead his case to the board.
Ziegler was a second-year teacher who got his bachelor's degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Ind. Bethel is an evangelical Christian college affiliated with the Missionary Church.
At the hearing, he told board members that his case was their opportunity to "make a stand for God."
"You're either for him or against him" he said.
Ziegler said that as a teacher he saw 120 students a day, many with "issues and worries" that were barriers to learning. By giving up their cares to Jesus, the students would be free to learn, he said.
The district's lawyer, Kelley Baker, however, asserted that the law clearly prohibits teachers from imposing their religious beliefs on students and from praying with or in the presence of them.
In a legal brief for the board, Baker wrote that school districts that fail to stop improper practices regarding religion can be held liable for a teacher's actions.
"School administrators have both the right and the obligation to direct teachers not to engage in such activity during school, and to stop it if they are already engaging in it," Baker wrote.
Jerry Kalina, an assistant principal at the high school, testified that a co-teacher from Ziegler's classroom first reported Oct. 4 that Ziegler was talking to students about his religious beliefs in class.
Ziegler was told to stop, but the co-teacher reported on Nov. 1 that he was doing it again, Kalina said.
A few days later, a student came to Kalina's office and said Ziegler was talking about his faith and that it upset her, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler had stopped her in the hall and asked if he could pray for her. She told him she felt uncomfortable while he prayed.
The girl's mother complained on Nov. 8 that she expected her daughter to learn math, not religion, in the class, Kalina said.
Kalina said he again told Ziegler to stop.
He said Ziegler was encouraged to talk to his minister and to contact former Cornhuskers receivers coach Ron Brown to get advice on how to juggle his beliefs and his teaching duties.
On Nov. 16, a student again raised the issue of Ziegler speaking about religion in class, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"
The next day, a teacher reported that a student was not doing well in algebra because she felt uncomfortable asking Ziegler for help, Kalina said.
Ziegler was placed on administrative leave, with pay, on Nov. 18.
Kalina testified that he would "absolutely" like to have Ziegler back in the classroom, but only if he met one condition: "That he stop talking about Jesus Christ."
"My opinion is Mr. Ziegler was hired to teach math," he said. "And math instruction must come first."
Ziegler testified that his faith was too strong to set it aside.
"What they are telling me to do is in direct contradiction to what my authority, my God, is telling all believers to do," Ziegler said.
He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods.
Jim Glover, the principal at Papillion-La Vista High School, said Ziegler wasn't the first teacher he'd seen with strong beliefs.
"Over the last 32 years, there have been a number who have struggled as Rob has struggled. All were able to eventually make the separation," he said.
School board member Jim Thompson said that in eight years on the board, the hearing was the "toughest" meeting he'd attended.
Thompson said he hoped Ziegler could find a teaching job where professing his faith is "not only legal, but encouraged."
Cassie Young, 16, a student in one of Ziegler's pre-algebra classes, was among several students who left the hearing teary-eyed after the board announced its decision.
Young said the decision was "one more way of kicking God out of school."
"The law of man is wrong, and one day everyone will know that," she said.
"I think JFK is broken."
I doubt you think at all, really, and are more the broken record here than anyone.
Not claiming to be an English teacher.
He never would have been fired if he had been spewing ISLAM!
I think he could have been a little more tactful, by not doing it on a daily basis, or at least, not making a session out of it. Throwing in a Bible verse, occasionally, would be OK. I think he just wanted to teach or preach to students about God. He should go to a christian private school for that.
I know it's hard to believe, some people pay thousands of dollars to have their child taught morals and religion.
I should know, I am one of the parents that did.
"You know... I give up on you. "
Oh, cry me a freaking river.
Bye....
"They will never shut up the secular atheists; that is WHY they are silencing the Christians."
Lots here hear this but they are too afraid/cowardly/busy to admit it.
And that is why public funding of schools must be eliminated. And Christian educators must continue the battle in public schools.
Try reading the article. It's utterly obvious he did much more than that.
The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"
He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods.
You are a anti-Christian bigot from all appearances.
Name calling is the resort of those who are losing the argument.
Somebody has to play "the devil's advocate"
A good teacher will teach/preach/motivate all at the same time. 100% grindstone teaching does not equal 100% attention span from students. A good teacher knew when to put a break in and when to get input from his/her students on how they were grasping the subject matter. All of my best teachers, did this quite well. It is an art, but to teach you must connect with your pupil. I have a feeling this teacher instilled more math into those heads of mush, than the average boring math teacher.
In a nutshell, a good teacher makes learning fun. I majored in mathematics, and I had a great HS teacher that could motivate. That motivation did not revolve around just pure math, but on the teacher being human and showing that he cared for us. Off subject talk is just part of teaching, be it war stories, religion, or home life references. You use your life's experiences to teach, any good teacher will understand that.
Anyone that speaks from the heart is preaching. It may not be Christian doctrine they are preaching, but they are preaching all the same.
Sermon over...
jimt - "He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods."
JFK_Lib - oh my! A whole 10 minutes? I have seen teachers sleeping in class longer and not get fired for it.
jimt - Name calling is the resort of those who are losing the argument.
JFK_Lib- I want trying to call names as to try and get you to say what your perspective is on all this; do you believe that Christians should continue to be singled out for silencing in the public schools while every pervert, atheist and pagan speaks freely or not? You cant silence these latter groups, the ACLU will tkae you to court, so can Christians get equal time or not according to you?
Look, we're on the same side but you have to understand that a public school teacher is a representaitive of the state and proselytizing on the public dime is not permitted by the establishment clause.
Certainly the state can not prohibit the man from answering questions if asked or from wearing a crucifix about his neck but they can require him not to proselytize while teaching. Just as they can be sure another teacher does not proselytize on the "wonders" of jihadism, homosexuality or abortion.
The First Amendment says : "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Further history shows:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/06.html
Madison's version of the speech and press clauses, introduced in the House of Representatives on June 8, 1789, provided: ''The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable.''1 The special committee rewrote the language to some extent, adding other provisions from Madison's draft, to make it read: ''The freedom of speech and of the press, and the right of the people peaceably to assemble and consult for their common good, and to apply to the Government for redress of grievances, shall not be infringed.''2 In this form it went to the Senate, which rewrote it to read: ''That Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and consult for their common good, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.''3 Subsequently, the religion clauses and these clauses were combined by the Senate.4 The final language was agreed upon in conference.
This teacher is having his freedom of speech curtailed if he is simply responding to student query concerning it.
Why have Christians adopted the same fraudulent perspective of their enemies? What part of the "free exercise thereof" do these liberals not get?
It can only make you wonder what they would do if this man brought in video tapes to show the class about global warming or the desire to save the greyhound racing dogs as a teacher did at my son's high school here on the island.
Or what would they do if a bus driver talked about being pro-choice to her students, would they fire her/him?
Or a bus driver that fled the scene of an accident where property damage was done.
Did they fire her? Answer-NO!
If it fits their agenda it's OK in their book..
I also found out that many people knew of the principals drug habit for over a year and did nothing about it.
He had to get arrested on felony drug charges so he could get paid pending the outcome of the trial.
He is supposed to be in court today, I wonder if he plead guilty?
$97,438 a year. My wife made $9,000 and was fired.
sickening
I'd like to see his defense of a mathematics teacher who described the reign of Alexander the Great with lots of detailed descriptions, with photos and video re-enactment, of Al's supposed homosexuality.
Your post is extremely right wing, and properly so.
"Look, we're on the same side but you have to understand that a public school teacher is a representaitive of the state and proselytizing on the public dime is not permitted by the establishment clause.
Certainly the state can not prohibit the man from answering questions if asked or from wearing a crucifix about his neck but they can require him not to proselytize while teaching. "
That is the crux of my original question. Given the secular presses predisposition to make Christians look as bad as possible, do we really KNOW for a fact that this man was doing anything more than ansering questions? I know that that is the spin to the story but all we have are the unsubstantiated charges of a handful of students, teachers and parents that he was being aggressive. His point of view on those charges were not presented, but only of his 'proseletyzing', which in the view of many secularists could be jsut wearing a cross or referencing the DoI or answering questions.
We just dont know and it amazes me to see so many people that call themselves christian jumping on the secularist bandwagon to damn this guy.
That is all.
Beyond that, it amazes me to see Christians still bying this old canard regarding the First Amendment limiting religious expression on government property; that is NOT what establishment of religion refers to.
Spoken like a Freedom Under Clark Kerr anti-war demonstrator.
"I'd like to see his defense of a mathematics teacher who described the reign of Alexander the Great with lots of detailed descriptions, with photos and video re-enactment, of Al's supposed homosexuality."
I see no reason to delve into homoerotic art, but I have told my children that Alexander the Great was bisexual (he was not homosexsual).
So what?
Of course he would. Spewing Islam is just as inappropriate as spewing Christianity (or Wiccan or Zen-Odinism) in a mathematics class.
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