Posted on 12/22/2004 7:53:02 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger
It now appears that the premise of the question that caused an uproar around Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was off base. In Kuwait two weeks ago, Army Specialist Thomas Wilson (search) told Rumsfeld, "our vehicles are not armored ... We do not have proper armament vehicles to carry with us north [into Iraq]."
But, according to senior Army officers, about 800 of the 830 vehicles in Wilson's army regiment — the 278th Cavalry — had already been up-armored when he asked the question. What's more, 20 vehicles remaining to be modified were in the process of being up-armored — and that was completed within 24 hours of Wilson's question.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
I caught something about that last night on Brit Hume.
So the question was a lie, and planted by a reporter. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?
I'm sure all the newspapers and networks that ran those "Rumsfeld under fire" stories will now issue corrections and apologies.
Yep. Any minute now...
Armour story bump/ping
Quite interesting, huh? Some of the posters on the Friedman thread need to read this.
Reading further in the link, I see where New York's 31 EVs went to John L. Kerry. He was John L. Kerry before he was John F. Kerry, ya see...
I watched him, when he said it, but couldn't find it on the web at the time.
I am glad you posted it.
The set-up lie got front page coverage for a week, the truth isn't even mentioned.
You can always count on dems to lie, and obfuscate the truth in any way possible...
Also, the two families who complained bitterly that Rumsfeld didn't personally sign the condolence note have been enemies of Bush and Rumsfeld all along. Details, which the MSM omitted.
"ABC did a report this week on military families upset that Rumsfeld used a machine to sign condolence letters. It quoted two people who lost family members in Iraq, Ivan Medina and Sue Niederer. But what ABC did not mention is that both Medina and Niederer are long-time critics of the Bush administration.
Seven months ago Medina participated in an anti-Rumsfeld protest outside West Point, calling him a "liar and a war criminal." And just three months ago, Niederer interrupted a Bush campaign event in New Jersey, yelling and sporting a shirt that read: "President Bush You Killed My Son." She was arrested."
Support Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
President Bush has reaffirmed his faith in Donald Rumsfeld by asking him to remain in his cabinet for his second term. We stand with our president and the leadership of the Republican Party who have expressed their confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld.
We express our steadfast support for Sec. Rumsfeld, and we urge President Bush to reject any efforts by the media, liberal detractors, or disloyal Republicans to push for Rumsfeld's resignation or ouster. In times of war, there is no place for playing politics with the Department of Defense.
>> Sign the Petition!
This is what liberal media bias is all about. Any decent journalist would have immediately looked into that soldier's unit to see how many vehicles were or were not armored. Nope. Not our MSM. They saw an opportunity to hit Rumsfeld and they just couldn't resist. Facts be damned.
Exactly. It's the Joe Wilson thing all over again. The entire thing was a lie, and they gave it wall to wall coverage. After it was proven a lie, you didn't hear a thing.
Dan Rather's question was a lie, and planted by ???. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?
The New York Times will print a lie in bold letters on page one above the fold and then print the retraction on the back pages of the sports section.
you know what??? I'm so over this and I'm going to say something that might get me flamed but screw it.
That soldier was full of crap for bringing up that stuff outside the chain of command, in public and in doing so made the National Guard unit look like an undisciplined bunch of quasi-warriors.
First of all, the soldier KNEW that nothing he said was going to actually change the armor situation... it never does. What did he want the SecDef to do... stand there, look teary eyed and say... "gee we're so stupid and lazy for sending you here to fight without armor. I think I'll just go to the White House right after this and resign." dumbass..
The other FACt is the Humvee was NEVER designed to be an armored transport the lack of armor shouldn't be a surprise. We're fighting a urban guerrilla war.. the front is everywhere and nowhere. His NCO's and supply and motor pool guys will ADAPT and OVERCOME to accomplish the mission. That's why they were using stuff they could find and welding it on to the vehicles. That's why it's called "war"... it's messy, deadly and NOTHING ever goes as planned. Deal with it and move on soldier. If opening your yap in front of the world will help, do it.... but it doesn't and he knew it wouldn't do a damn thing.
Secondly, by opening his pie hole at a news conference he let the ENEMY KNOW that they weren't retrofitted with armor and were vulnerable. Thanks a-hole... that sure will help.
Guess what, now all the liberals, Democrats, Islamo-thugs and other Anti-Americans that hope we fail will have another propaganda weapon.. the flogging of Rumsfeld. The guerrilla war continues and by splitting us up as the Democrats are doing, we are encouraging the killing and helping the enemy.
I've met loud mouthed, undisciplined, uniform fillers before and this clown meets the criteria. He and his unit should think about what they are doing and saying. They are in a very serious fight. This is not the time to start getting caught up in a pity party but a time to hunker down, do your job and zip your lip. His unit is a laughing stock to regular units but nobody in the press is reporting that little fact. I'd like to hear Force Recon, Seal, Airborne or any regular Army units whining like that in front of the press.
Nothing like a war to cull out the dead wood. It's the same in every war this country has had.... a lot of people get killed early from not adopting the warrior mind... which means, do your job, kill the enemy and get your buddies and yourself home to your family.
sorry for the rant... of course this is only my opinion and I could be wrong.
Should I hold my breathe in waiting for Chrissy Matthews to report on these facts??
I didn't think so
Why don't these officers reveal themselves?
Wouldn't Rummy/DOD want them front and center to back them up on this thing?
This seems fishy.
they didn't...maybe you need to watch the tape to see that a lot of them "groaned" when the questioned was asked and at the end Rummy was given a standing ovation! Don't ever believe the main stream media.
LOL!
Of course he's still employed. Right now, he's figuring out the best spot in his office to place his Pulitzer.
It now appears that the premise of the question that caused an uproar around Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was off base.
So, WHAT ELSE is new? Sheeeshhhh!
They were either armored or they weren't. Someone knows the truth.
I suspect they did this because it was a tough question and it challenged authority, they probably wanted Rumsfeld to beat his arse!
By the time Wilson's unit headed into Iraq, Speakes said, it had 252 vehicles with bolt-on armor plate produced as $7,000-$11,000 add-on kits in the United States and shipped to Kuwait for installation by soldiers.Town Hall Meeting in Kuwait
An additional 459 vehicles had less protective, locally fabricated armor plate installed by GIs in Kuwait — armor known to GIs as ''hillbilly armor.'' Wilson's question referred to that type of ad hoc armor.
The unit picked up an additional 119 armored Humvees upon arrival in Iraq that had been left behind by departing combat units.
Q: Yes, Mr. Secretary. My question is more logistical. We’ve had troops in Iraq for coming up on three years and we’ve always staged here out of Kuwait. Now why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromise ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles and why don’t we have those resources readily available to us? [Applause]Special Defense Department Briefing on Armored Vehicles
SEC. RUMSFELD: I missed the first part of your question. And could you repeat it for me?
Q: Yes, Mr. Secretary. Our soldiers have been fighting in Iraq for coming up on three years. A lot of us are getting ready to move north relatively soon. Our vehicles are not armored. We’re digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that’s already been shot up, dropped, busted, picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat. We do not have proper armament vehicles to carry with us north.
THIS was total fabrication.
The problems with the question were:
1. The statements made as part of the question were NOT true.
2. A reporter made up the question and the soldier repeated it, lies and all.
3. It was deliberately making untrue statements in a very disrespectful way, deliberately almost making it sounds, as if Rumsfeld himself personally kept the armor from the vehicles to put the troops lives in more danger. (He could have asked the question about the armor, without being combattive towards Rumsfeld.)
Piiiiing.
Online Activist -- Rumsfeld Petition
www.gopusa.com/activist/petitions
Support Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
President Bush has reaffirmed his faith in Donald Rumsfeld by asking him to remain in his cabinet for his second term. We stand with our president and the leadership of the Republican Party who have expressed their confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld.
We express our steadfast support for Sec. Rumsfeld, and we urge President Bush to reject any efforts by the media, liberal detractors, or disloyal Republicans to push for Rumsfeld's resignation or ouster. In times of war, there is no place for playing politics with the Department of Defense.
>> Sign the Petition!
The statements made as part of the question were NOT true.
Are you stating that Wilson did not dig through landfills for scrap metal for "hillbilly armor"?
YOu yourself said that the "hillbilly" armor was manufactured locally, it was NOT something they dug out from scrapheaps.
"An additional 459 vehicles had less protective, locally fabricated armor plate installed by GIs in Kuwait — armor known to GIs as ''hillbilly armor.'"
The "question" said:
"We’re digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that’s already been shot up, dropped, busted, picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat. "
This is NOT equivalent.
Actually, yes it is. You get the steel, bring it to the motor pool so it can be cut into shape and welded onto the vehicle.
How you get the steel is up to you.
These are not manufactured kits. In fact, if you are aware of manufactured armor kits for deuce and 5 tons, please provide a link.
A great article about why the left is really attacking Rumsfeld. It's a great read and right on the money.
Dismantling Rumsfeld’s Successes
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1307058/posts
And Joseph Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry never said anything positive about the U.S. war effort in World War II.
You have to remember that Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry in 1944 and the American Liberal news media in 2004 both share the same goal of undermining the morale of the American Home Front in order to force the U.S. to abandon the war effort.
Speaking as an active duty member, this SPC can face NJP (non-judicial punishment) or court-martial (less likely) for purposely attempting to defame the Secretary of Defense. The SPC knew, he KNEW, that there were no such vehicles. On top of that, he used a planted question.
When I was in the military that sort of crap would have landed you in a world of trouble.
Well stated.
Of the hundred or so Senate and Congressional correspondence I've received over the years, all have been signed by the "auto-pen".
Currently, the enterprise is working on much more than just Humvee protection. It also is filling an order for 1,293 armored replacement cabs for M939 5-ton trucks, and another 221 armor modifications to the Army's M969 fuel tankers. Also in development is an armor kit for the M915 truck tractor, but no specific order has been finalized.Defense News
Only 15 percent of the 4,314 heavy trucks in the combat theater have any armor, and none of the 3,112 5-ton and 2-ton trucks are armored, according to a Dec. 4 Army document provided to the House Armed Services Committee.
...
The only mid-size trucks in the Army inventory with armor today are FMTVs: 479 will be armored by January, leaving 1,262 to be hardened.
A very good rant.....
bookmarked. hey didn't rush credit FR for digging this up?
Special Defense Department Briefing on Uparmoring HMMWV
Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:03 a.m. EST | Major General Stephen Speakes
Keep in mind, sand bags are considered hardening material.
They are in heavy use in military vehicles in Iraq/Afghanistan. Very effective
The "enterprise" is Rock Island Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois (Quad Cities area). There are other arms of the Army who are working on this as well as Rock Island (TACOM, APG and others).
2, 2 1/2 and 5 ton truck armoring was designed during Vietnam war. However it was discontinued. I understand there were similar problems with explosive devices/boobytraps.
Most of these vehicles are not used in high risk areas, but in support.
How many of these soldiers cheering actually KNEW the true situation of the armor and how many of them just accepted the other soldiers account as valid?
The "enterprise" is Ground Systems Industrial Enterprise on Arsenal Island, "which manages add-on armor kits for its parent command, the Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command in Michigan," and "works under schedules set by an Army project manager at the command".
"We've got much more production capacity beyond that by putting more partners at place," he said, noting additional manufacturing partners, both public and private, can be called in to supplement the seven Army arsenals and depots that have produced armor kits to date.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.