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**Wilson's Armor Question Unfounded! 800 of the 830 Vehicles were Armored!**
Special Report with Brit Hume - The Grapevine ^ | 12/21/04 | Brit Hume/Michael Levine

Posted on 12/22/2004 7:53:02 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger

It now appears that the premise of the question that caused an uproar around Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was off base. In Kuwait two weeks ago, Army Specialist Thomas Wilson (search) told Rumsfeld, "our vehicles are not armored ... We do not have proper armament vehicles to carry with us north [into Iraq]."

But, according to senior Army officers, about 800 of the 830 vehicles in Wilson's army regiment — the 278th Cavalry — had already been up-armored when he asked the question. What's more, 20 vehicles remaining to be modified were in the process of being up-armored — and that was completed within 24 hours of Wilson's question.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: armor; armorflap; brithume; courtmartial; embeddedahole; humveearmor; iraq; lyingliars; napalminthemorning; partyofthehindparts; partywingofthednc; rathergate; rattricks; rumsfeld; wilson
Haven't heard too much about this from the liberal media!!
1 posted on 12/22/2004 7:53:04 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I caught something about that last night on Brit Hume.


2 posted on 12/22/2004 7:56:15 PM PST by cripplecreek (I come swinging the olive branch of peace.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

So the question was a lie, and planted by a reporter. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?


3 posted on 12/22/2004 7:56:23 PM PST by Jotmo ("Voon", said the mattress.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I'm sure all the newspapers and networks that ran those "Rumsfeld under fire" stories will now issue corrections and apologies.

Yep. Any minute now...


4 posted on 12/22/2004 8:00:33 PM PST by CAR913 (Is there ANYTHING leftists won't blame on Bush???)
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To: Former Military Chick

Armour story bump/ping


5 posted on 12/22/2004 8:04:21 PM PST by Khurkris (That sound you hear coming from over the horizon...thats me laughing.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Quite interesting, huh? Some of the posters on the Friedman thread need to read this.

Reading further in the link, I see where New York's 31 EVs went to John L. Kerry. He was John L. Kerry before he was John F. Kerry, ya see...


6 posted on 12/22/2004 8:07:48 PM PST by Theresawithanh (Snappy, witty, humerous tagline needed! Will pay in Marlboro Miles...)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I watched him, when he said it, but couldn't find it on the web at the time.

I am glad you posted it.

The set-up lie got front page coverage for a week, the truth isn't even mentioned.


7 posted on 12/22/2004 8:12:23 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: DaveLoneRanger

You can always count on dems to lie, and obfuscate the truth in any way possible...


8 posted on 12/22/2004 8:12:24 PM PST by snuffy smiff (Jean Fraud Kerry-the Botox BoatWarrior,"oh no, aground again and huge riceberg approaching")
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Also, the two families who complained bitterly that Rumsfeld didn't personally sign the condolence note have been enemies of Bush and Rumsfeld all along. Details, which the MSM omitted.

"ABC did a report this week on military families upset that Rumsfeld used a machine to sign condolence letters. It quoted two people who lost family members in Iraq, Ivan Medina and Sue Niederer. But what ABC did not mention is that both Medina and Niederer are long-time critics of the Bush administration.

Seven months ago Medina participated in an anti-Rumsfeld protest outside West Point, calling him a "liar and a war criminal." And just three months ago, Niederer interrupted a Bush campaign event in New Jersey, yelling and sporting a shirt that read: "President Bush You Killed My Son." She was arrested."



9 posted on 12/22/2004 8:14:42 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: DaveLoneRanger



Support Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

President Bush has reaffirmed his faith in Donald Rumsfeld by asking him to remain in his cabinet for his second term. We stand with our president and the leadership of the Republican Party who have expressed their confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld.

We express our steadfast support for Sec. Rumsfeld, and we urge President Bush to reject any efforts by the media, liberal detractors, or disloyal Republicans to push for Rumsfeld's resignation or ouster. In times of war, there is no place for playing politics with the Department of Defense.

>> Sign the Petition!


10 posted on 12/22/2004 8:17:03 PM PST by danamco
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To: DaveLoneRanger

This is what liberal media bias is all about. Any decent journalist would have immediately looked into that soldier's unit to see how many vehicles were or were not armored. Nope. Not our MSM. They saw an opportunity to hit Rumsfeld and they just couldn't resist. Facts be damned.


11 posted on 12/22/2004 8:17:36 PM PST by mainepatsfan
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To: mainepatsfan

Exactly. It's the Joe Wilson thing all over again. The entire thing was a lie, and they gave it wall to wall coverage. After it was proven a lie, you didn't hear a thing.


12 posted on 12/22/2004 8:19:44 PM PST by Republican Wildcat
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To: Jotmo
So the question was a lie, and planted by a reporter. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?

Dan Rather's question was a lie, and planted by ???. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?

13 posted on 12/22/2004 8:20:37 PM PST by Mad_Tom_Rackham (Time to let slip the dogs...)
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To: Republican Wildcat

The New York Times will print a lie in bold letters on page one above the fold and then print the retraction on the back pages of the sports section.


14 posted on 12/22/2004 8:21:49 PM PST by mainepatsfan
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Why did his fellow soldiers erupt in cheers when he asked the question?
15 posted on 12/22/2004 8:23:19 PM PST by McChordwatcher (Still Learning FR's Ropes)
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To: Jotmo
So the question was a lie, and planted by a reporter. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?

you know what??? I'm so over this and I'm going to say something that might get me flamed but screw it.

That soldier was full of crap for bringing up that stuff outside the chain of command, in public and in doing so made the National Guard unit look like an undisciplined bunch of quasi-warriors.

First of all, the soldier KNEW that nothing he said was going to actually change the armor situation... it never does. What did he want the SecDef to do... stand there, look teary eyed and say... "gee we're so stupid and lazy for sending you here to fight without armor. I think I'll just go to the White House right after this and resign." dumbass..

The other FACt is the Humvee was NEVER designed to be an armored transport the lack of armor shouldn't be a surprise. We're fighting a urban guerrilla war.. the front is everywhere and nowhere. His NCO's and supply and motor pool guys will ADAPT and OVERCOME to accomplish the mission. That's why they were using stuff they could find and welding it on to the vehicles. That's why it's called "war"... it's messy, deadly and NOTHING ever goes as planned. Deal with it and move on soldier. If opening your yap in front of the world will help, do it.... but it doesn't and he knew it wouldn't do a damn thing.

Secondly, by opening his pie hole at a news conference he let the ENEMY KNOW that they weren't retrofitted with armor and were vulnerable. Thanks a-hole... that sure will help.

Guess what, now all the liberals, Democrats, Islamo-thugs and other Anti-Americans that hope we fail will have another propaganda weapon.. the flogging of Rumsfeld. The guerrilla war continues and by splitting us up as the Democrats are doing, we are encouraging the killing and helping the enemy.

I've met loud mouthed, undisciplined, uniform fillers before and this clown meets the criteria. He and his unit should think about what they are doing and saying. They are in a very serious fight. This is not the time to start getting caught up in a pity party but a time to hunker down, do your job and zip your lip. His unit is a laughing stock to regular units but nobody in the press is reporting that little fact. I'd like to hear Force Recon, Seal, Airborne or any regular Army units whining like that in front of the press.

Nothing like a war to cull out the dead wood. It's the same in every war this country has had.... a lot of people get killed early from not adopting the warrior mind... which means, do your job, kill the enemy and get your buddies and yourself home to your family.

sorry for the rant... of course this is only my opinion and I could be wrong.

16 posted on 12/22/2004 8:25:35 PM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: FairOpinion; cyncooper; OXENinFLA

Should I hold my breathe in waiting for Chrissy Matthews to report on these facts??


I didn't think so


17 posted on 12/22/2004 8:25:49 PM PST by Mo1 (Should be called Oil for Fraud and not Oil for Food)
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To: mainepatsfan

Why don't these officers reveal themselves?

Wouldn't Rummy/DOD want them front and center to back them up on this thing?

This seems fishy.


18 posted on 12/22/2004 8:26:45 PM PST by Massachusetts
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To: McChordwatcher

they didn't...maybe you need to watch the tape to see that a lot of them "groaned" when the questioned was asked and at the end Rummy was given a standing ovation! Don't ever believe the main stream media.


19 posted on 12/22/2004 8:28:02 PM PST by ozzysmom
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To: DaveLoneRanger

LOL!


20 posted on 12/22/2004 8:28:12 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: Jotmo
So the question was a lie, and planted by a reporter. And he's still employed. Is anyone surprised?

Of course he's still employed. Right now, he's figuring out the best spot in his office to place his Pulitzer.

21 posted on 12/22/2004 8:28:22 PM PST by CFC__VRWC (It's not evidence of wrongdoing just because Democrats don't like the outcome.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

It now appears that the premise of the question that caused an uproar around Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was off base.

So, WHAT ELSE is new? Sheeeshhhh!


22 posted on 12/22/2004 8:28:30 PM PST by Just Lori (I stand behind our troops, but I'd rather stand BESIDE them!)
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To: Massachusetts

They were either armored or they weren't. Someone knows the truth.


23 posted on 12/22/2004 8:28:30 PM PST by mainepatsfan
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To: McChordwatcher
Why did his fellow soldiers erupt in cheers when he asked the question?

I suspect they did this because it was a tough question and it challenged authority, they probably wanted Rumsfeld to beat his arse!

24 posted on 12/22/2004 8:30:05 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: DaveLoneRanger; FairOpinion
Unit's vehicles all had armor within day of soldier's query
By the time Wilson's unit headed into Iraq, Speakes said, it had 252 vehicles with bolt-on armor plate produced as $7,000-$11,000 add-on kits in the United States and shipped to Kuwait for installation by soldiers.

An additional 459 vehicles had less protective, locally fabricated armor plate installed by GIs in Kuwait — armor known to GIs as ''hillbilly armor.'' Wilson's question referred to that type of ad hoc armor.

The unit picked up an additional 119 armored Humvees upon arrival in Iraq that had been left behind by departing combat units.
Town Hall Meeting in Kuwait
Q: Yes, Mr. Secretary. My question is more logistical. We’ve had troops in Iraq for coming up on three years and we’ve always staged here out of Kuwait. Now why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromise ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles and why don’t we have those resources readily available to us? [Applause]

SEC. RUMSFELD: I missed the first part of your question. And could you repeat it for me?

Q: Yes, Mr. Secretary. Our soldiers have been fighting in Iraq for coming up on three years. A lot of us are getting ready to move north relatively soon. Our vehicles are not armored. We’re digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that’s already been shot up, dropped, busted, picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat. We do not have proper armament vehicles to carry with us north.
Special Defense Department Briefing on Armored Vehicles
25 posted on 12/22/2004 8:32:13 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
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To: optimistically_conservative
"Now why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal "

THIS was total fabrication.

The problems with the question were:

1. The statements made as part of the question were NOT true.

2. A reporter made up the question and the soldier repeated it, lies and all.

3. It was deliberately making untrue statements in a very disrespectful way, deliberately almost making it sounds, as if Rumsfeld himself personally kept the armor from the vehicles to put the troops lives in more danger. (He could have asked the question about the armor, without being combattive towards Rumsfeld.)

26 posted on 12/22/2004 8:36:52 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: ValerieUSA; blam; Ernest_at_the_Beach; FairOpinion

Piiiiing.


27 posted on 12/22/2004 8:37:08 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Online Activist -- Rumsfeld Petition

www.gopusa.com/activist/petitions

Support Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

President Bush has reaffirmed his faith in Donald Rumsfeld by asking him to remain in his cabinet for his second term. We stand with our president and the leadership of the Republican Party who have expressed their confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld.

We express our steadfast support for Sec. Rumsfeld, and we urge President Bush to reject any efforts by the media, liberal detractors, or disloyal Republicans to push for Rumsfeld's resignation or ouster. In times of war, there is no place for playing politics with the Department of Defense.

>> Sign the Petition!



28 posted on 12/22/2004 8:38:30 PM PST by danamco
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To: FairOpinion
"Now why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal "

The statements made as part of the question were NOT true.

Are you stating that Wilson did not dig through landfills for scrap metal for "hillbilly armor"?

29 posted on 12/22/2004 8:39:56 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
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To: optimistically_conservative

YOu yourself said that the "hillbilly" armor was manufactured locally, it was NOT something they dug out from scrapheaps.

"An additional 459 vehicles had less protective, locally fabricated armor plate installed by GIs in Kuwait — armor known to GIs as ''hillbilly armor.'"

The "question" said:

"We’re digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that’s already been shot up, dropped, busted, picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat. "

This is NOT equivalent.


30 posted on 12/22/2004 8:42:17 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion

Actually, yes it is. You get the steel, bring it to the motor pool so it can be cut into shape and welded onto the vehicle.

How you get the steel is up to you.

These are not manufactured kits. In fact, if you are aware of manufactured armor kits for deuce and 5 tons, please provide a link.


31 posted on 12/22/2004 8:49:38 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

A great article about why the left is really attacking Rumsfeld. It's a great read and right on the money.

Dismantling Rumsfeld’s Successes

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1307058/posts


32 posted on 12/22/2004 8:59:41 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: ozzysmom; Echo Talon
With all due respect, I've just checked the video from a couple of sources and indeed the question was met with applause and cheers. Soldiers are in the background nodding their heads in agreement while it is being asked. There were no groans.

I suspect that Echo Talon is correct that the applause was partly for the fact that the question was challenging authority.

My experience with such events tells me that if it was a flat out lie, the reaction would have been much different.

(time for bed. early flight tomorrow. g'night)
33 posted on 12/22/2004 9:09:29 PM PST by McChordwatcher (Still Learning FR's Ropes)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Haven't heard too much about this from the liberal media!!

And Joseph Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry never said anything positive about the U.S. war effort in World War II.

You have to remember that Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry in 1944 and the American Liberal news media in 2004 both share the same goal of undermining the morale of the American Home Front in order to force the U.S. to abandon the war effort.

34 posted on 12/22/2004 9:17:27 PM PST by Polybius
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Speaking as an active duty member, this SPC can face NJP (non-judicial punishment) or court-martial (less likely) for purposely attempting to defame the Secretary of Defense. The SPC knew, he KNEW, that there were no such vehicles. On top of that, he used a planted question.


35 posted on 12/22/2004 9:27:46 PM PST by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: FairOpinion

When I was in the military that sort of crap would have landed you in a world of trouble.


36 posted on 12/22/2004 9:29:55 PM PST by Jotmo ("Voon", said the mattress.)
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To: optimistically_conservative
3 levels of up armoring:
Level 1 - Vehicle comes from factory with improvements and meant to stay on vehicle for its lifetime. Thus, the vehicle is completely designed for the additional weight.
Level 2 - Armor is 'add-on' armor available in kits that are installed on existing vehicles. Kits are designed with limitations of vehicles in mind.
Level 3 - Level III armor is locally fabricated (Iraq) and is considered a temporary solution until Level I or II armor can be applied. This level of armor is usually made and attached by Army maintenance companies.
There are kits for all vehicles (5 tons, HEMTT's, HET's) Big problems occur with Humvee's when you start adding weight and don't know what you are doing. Good way to blow out ball joints. You don't want this to happen when you are hauling ass and under fire.
Keep in mind, as with everything, there is a compromise in up armoring a vehicle - speed for strength. The Marines didn't want up armored Humvees as it slowed them down too much.

37 posted on 12/22/2004 9:33:14 PM PST by bear11
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To: McChordwatcher
Re: ...a flat out lie

There is no doubt that units fabricated armor for vehicles. There is plenty of info for that. That was 2003. Since then there has been an effort to upgrade, and it has been successful. The troops may have harbored resentment, but unknowing of the true numbers of upgraded armor to vehicles.
38 posted on 12/22/2004 9:41:11 PM PST by endthematrix ("Hey, it didn't hit a bone, Colonel. Do you think I can go back?" - U.S. Marine)
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To: Dick Vomer

Well stated.


39 posted on 12/22/2004 9:50:43 PM PST by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: FairOpinion
The infamous Auto-Pen, a mechanical signature device which had a wheel, which inserted would "sign" the correspondence. I used to do this for the Commander, XVIII Airborne Corps and for the Commander in Chief, Korea in the 1980s.

Of the hundred or so Senate and Congressional correspondence I've received over the years, all have been signed by the "auto-pen".

40 posted on 12/22/2004 10:07:18 PM PST by Jumper
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To: bear11
M939-M35 Crew Protection Kits Prototyped for Operation Iraqi Freedom
Arsenal ready to step up armor production
Currently, the enterprise is working on much more than just Humvee protection. It also is filling an order for 1,293 armored replacement cabs for M939 5-ton trucks, and another 221 armor modifications to the Army's M969 fuel tankers. Also in development is an armor kit for the M915 truck tractor, but no specific order has been finalized.
Defense News
Only 15 percent of the 4,314 heavy trucks in the combat theater have any armor, and none of the 3,112 5-ton and 2-ton trucks are armored, according to a Dec. 4 Army document provided to the House Armed Services Committee.
...
The only mid-size trucks in the Army inventory with armor today are FMTVs: 479 will be armored by January, leaving 1,262 to be hardened.

41 posted on 12/22/2004 10:15:37 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
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To: Dick Vomer

A very good rant.....


42 posted on 12/22/2004 10:23:51 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (A Proud member of Free Republic ~~The New Face of the Fourth Estate since 1996.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

bookmarked. hey didn't rush credit FR for digging this up?


43 posted on 12/22/2004 10:25:27 PM PST by paltz
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To: optimistically_conservative; FairOpinion
Much background in this transcript:

Special Defense Department Briefing on Uparmoring HMMWV

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:03 a.m. EST | Major General Stephen Speakes

44 posted on 12/22/2004 10:29:29 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (A Proud member of Free Republic ~~The New Face of the Fourth Estate since 1996.)
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To: optimistically_conservative

Keep in mind, sand bags are considered hardening material.
They are in heavy use in military vehicles in Iraq/Afghanistan. Very effective

The "enterprise" is Rock Island Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois (Quad Cities area). There are other arms of the Army who are working on this as well as Rock Island (TACOM, APG and others).

2, 2 1/2 and 5 ton truck armoring was designed during Vietnam war. However it was discontinued. I understand there were similar problems with explosive devices/boobytraps.
Most of these vehicles are not used in high risk areas, but in support.


45 posted on 12/22/2004 10:37:37 PM PST by bear11
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To: McChordwatcher

How many of these soldiers cheering actually KNEW the true situation of the armor and how many of them just accepted the other soldiers account as valid?


46 posted on 12/22/2004 11:06:00 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: bear11
The "enterprise" is Rock Island Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois (Quad Cities area). There are other arms of the Army who are working on this as well as Rock Island (TACOM, APG and others).

The "enterprise" is Ground Systems Industrial Enterprise on Arsenal Island, "which manages add-on armor kits for its parent command, the Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command in Michigan," and "works under schedules set by an Army project manager at the command".

"We've got much more production capacity beyond that by putting more partners at place," he said, noting additional manufacturing partners, both public and private, can be called in to supplement the seven Army arsenals and depots that have produced armor kits to date.

47 posted on 12/23/2004 6:20:58 AM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
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