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To: orionblamblam
"In the interests of sowing discord, I will point out that whenever a fossil is shown to be a forgery, it is taken as evidence by Creationists that evolution is itself a fraud. Consequently, it is equally valid to declare the Bible a fraud based on some fraudulent artifacts."

hmmm, so you like to stir things up a bit:  "In the interests of sowing discord,..."   - OK

Point 1:

"...whenever a fossil is shown to be a forgery, it is taken as evidence by Creationists that evolution is itself a fraud."

FALSE - generalization, applying the attribute or attitude of a few members of a group (Creationists) to the entire group.

FALSE - invalid or fake data (forgery) can not be used to negate an hypothesis or theory (evolution).

Point 2:

"Consequently, it is equally valid to declare the Bible a fraud based on some fraudulent artifacts."

FALSE - conclusion (Consequently, it is equally valid) based on false assumption and generalizations.

You appear to desire a discussion (evolution vs. Creation) in which only one side can be correct.

However, IMHO, both theories or beliefs are correct.  Scientific evidence of evolution is abundant and basically sound, but not without it's unexplained oddities.  The science takes into account the laws of physics, mathematics, probability, chemistry, genetics and other such factors which are not attributed to the theory or belief of Intelligent Design (Creation).

The question arises: How did the natural laws of the universe come into being without Intelligent Design (Creation)?  Order can not come from chaos - only more chaos.  Given infinite time and infinite variables, the probability of chaos organizing itself into order is still infinitely so remote as to not even exist.

The laws of the universe are so intricately and delicately woven together, that Intelligent Design is the only possible answer.  There is much more to this universe than you and I will ever know.  Mankind's quest and ultimate adventure is to pursue that knowledge and thus, draw closer to God, the Creator of the Universe.

The theory of evolution may someday become the laws of evolution, but my question to you is "who, if not God,  designed and created" all of these laws?

3 posted on 12/29/2004 9:35:02 PM PST by RebelTex (Posting INSANE comments since 1988! (also silly, stupid, & scandalous comments))
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To: RebelTex

"Order can not come from chaos - only more chaos"

This is not only an assumption, but it is directly contradicted by observable fact and by the Bible.

The universe is full of examples of the formation of stars and "organic" chemicals.


5 posted on 12/29/2004 9:59:11 PM PST by Soliton (Alone with everyone else.)
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To: RebelTex

> FALSE - conclusion (Consequently, it is equally valid) based on false assumption and generalizations.

Bingo. Now, if only your irony detector was functioning, you might have understood the gist of things. Consider the phrase "equally valid." Zero equals zero.

>How did the natural laws of the universe come into being without Intelligent Design (Creation)?

By not having a Creator. There is no evidence that natural laws *need* a creator. Without knowing how many universes there are or have been, there is no way - ZERO - to determine what the statistical likelihood of our current setup is. And even if this universe is the sole example that ever was or ever will be, and jsut through random chance it has laws and constants that are consistent with our form of life... so what? Shuffle things around so that physics and math are very different, and maybe some other form of life would be possible. It is only PRIDE that causes people to think that the universe was ordered just to make *them* possible. It is astonishing hubris on a cosmic scale.

> the probability of chaos organizing itself into order is ...

About 100%. It happens all the time. Consider a hailstorm: while falling, the orientation of the individual little blobs of ice is complete chaos. but when they hit the ground, the more there are, the more ordered becomes the overall orientation. Consider water vapor in the air: completely chaotic. But lower the temperature, and that water vapor forms itself into neatly ordered water ice crystals.

Order out of chaos is not new or unusual.

> The laws of the universe are so intricately and delicately woven together

No, they're not. That's not a scientific statement, but basically just wishful poetry.

> my question to you is "who, if not God, designed and created" all of these laws?

Dunno. However, one perfectly reasonable answer is: "Nobody."


10 posted on 12/30/2004 5:55:13 AM PST by orionblamblam
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