Posted on 12/30/2004 1:24:14 PM PST by nanak
Do citizens really want these jobs?
From construction to landscaping, Bush 'guest worker' plan is controversial.
By Daniel B. Wood | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
LOS ANGELES – Scott Joyal says that if it weren't for illegal immigrants taking jobs that could have been his - first as a car washer or waiter, later in carpentry and construction - he would have had a lot easier time surviving financially over the past 10 years. The San Jose carpenter says he knows dozens of his colleagues who, like him, are also struggling to pay rent and keep food in the refrigerator because of competition from immigration.
It's a view that goes to one of the core questions raised by President Bush's proposal to let millions of illegal workers become legal "guest workers": Would they be stealing jobs that American citizens want and need?
Bush says no.
He calls it a "basic fact of life and economics" that some jobs being generated in America are ones citizens don't want to fill.
Yet that premise is controversial - in a slow job market in which millions are looking for work - and to many economists it is misleading. Many citizens will, and do, work side by side with immigrants who may be illegal in industries from meatpacking to hotels and landscaping. "Those workers are competing with US workers," says Dean Baker, an economist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research. "It's simply not true that US workers won't take these jobs." But many, he concedes, won't take them at the going wage.
In the view of many economists, the question is less one of stealing jobs than of altering the balance in labor market. The influx of immigrants, legal and illegal, adds to the supply of low-cost labor and puts downward pressure on pay. The upside, for the US economy, is lower consumer prices and, in some cases, keeping some production at home that might otherwise shift overseas.
For example, what if instead of recognizing "guest workers" the government took a policy of aggressively weeding out illegal immigrants? The resulting upward pressure on wages might push some jobs in, say, meatpacking or agriculture out of the country. But in other cases, it might prod businesses to increase wages, expand the use of automation (such as in harvesting), and to pass higher costs along to consumers.
Gauging the precise impact of immigrants, especially the illegal ones for whom the guest worker program is designed, is tricky. And employer groups and groups favoring limits on immigration can come up with very different conclusions. In one 1997 study the National Research Council found that immigration depresses wages modestly for many lower-income workers - by perhaps 5 percent over 15 years.
To many on the ground, however, the impact feels large. Construction is one industry where Baker says pay scales have been hit by the immigrant influx.
"I'm not against [immigrants]," says Mr. Joyal, the San Jose carpenter. "It just makes it difficult for native-born Americans to get jobs when undocumented aliens are lined up to get them first."
Since 1993, he says he has been turned down by carwashes, schools seeking janitors, restaurants, and hosts of construction jobs because immigrants got there first or underbid him.
Landscaping is another industry transformed by immigrant labor, even in states as far from the border as North Carolina.
Keith Martin, who owns a Raleigh-area landscape business, says the native-born Americans he encounters don't want to do the type of jobs he routinely gives to immigrants.
"Through my experience, Americans don't want to do this type of work, no matter what you pay them," says Mr. Martin, who runs a small shop with a trailer of mowers and hedge trimmers.
This doesn't prompt him to support Bush's guest worker idea, but it's the current reality of a business that involves laboring in the oppressive heat of Dixie, trimming curbs of suburban ranch houses and keeping the flower beds at local high-tech firms looking healthy.
In Bush's plan, illegal immigrants already in the US could apply for a three-year work permit, which would be renewable at least once. By giving legal status to millions already working in the fringes of the US economy, observers say, Bush's plan is to help ease labor shortages, improve working conditions, and stabilize wages paid to previously illegal immigrants.
But with the president scheduled to meet Monday with Mexican President Vicente Fox, the merits of the plan are a topic of hot debate.
"This is really a far bigger issue than just who gets low income jobs in immigration and border states," says Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies. "There are no numerical limits on these guest workers or what sector of the economy the jobs apply to. If employers can bypass American workers and not have to offer better wages and conditions ... the consequences to the American workplace could impact everyone."
According to the Center for Immigration Studies, there are more than 5.5 million working immigrants in America - legal and illegal - who lack high school education. Eighteen percent are in agriculture, 18 percent in construction, 16 percent in retail, 23 percent in manufacturing, 7 in business services/repair and 6 percent in personal services from maids to limo drivers.
"When we have 18 million Americans who can't find full-time jobs, it seems ludicrous to even be considering a program to import more foreign workers," says Rosemary Jencks of Numbers USA, an immigration reduction organization.
Kate Bronfenbrenner, a labor expert at Cornell University, says you can't draw a one-to-one comparison between the estimated 7 million illegal immigrants and the ranks of the US unemployed.
Some jobs categories are growing fast, she says, and they are often low-paying ones such as nurses' aides and housecleaners. "It's not true that Americans aren't working in them. There are just are plenty of those jobs to go around."
She worries, however, that Bush's plan tilts power heavily to employers, since the guest workers are not granted permanent residency. "Bush has established a program that gives employers the opportunity to exploit immigrant workers to an even greater degree."
• Patrik Jonsson and Mark Trumbull contributed to this report from Raliegh and Boston.
And you're not going to win the votes you need to get ANYTHING to do with immigration laws when you exaggerate and condescendingly scoff at people who don't agree with your interpretation of the plans being put forth.
Your first post on this thread:
"What a dumb post; are all your posts that dumb?"
I think all you Bush worshippers should start your own blog.
Illegal alien lawbreaker students should be kicked out of the United States. Or do you condone lawbreaking?
Run back to Stormfront now...hurry!
Hey PRND21, when's your next La Raza meeting?
Oh, really? That must be why Prop 187 was passed by the voters in California and Prop 200 was passed by the voters in Arizona. Also, it is mostly businesses that hire illegal aliens.
If you think there will be mass roundups and deportations, you are living in a dream world.
We don't need a mass roundup of illegal aliens. Cut off ALL taxpayer funded services to illegal aliens while at the same time crack down HARD on businesses that hire illegal aliens. With no jobs and no taxpayer funded freebies, illegal aliens will begin to "deport" themselves.
No, Google doesn't lie. Google found a page on Stormfront that contains Tancredo.
Deducing anything further than that takes a human, not a dumb computer.
I prefer 13524R, myself.
Give me your tired,your poor,your huddled masses yearning to breathe free....
In the United States Constitution
Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature c
Many of us voted for Bush and want him as our president, BUT cannot understand why he would open our borders, Dems want future voters and republicans want cheap labor. This is total BS> We are a nation of laws and these bastards in Washington do not follow them.
You should not say "invasion", the proper term is "undocumented visit".
Yes. And software bugs are sarcastically referred to as "undocumented features", have been since long before illegal aliens were "undocumented immigrants".
Which makes all of this usage of the term "undocumented" even more funny.
Of course we won't know the details until the bill is introduced but I wonder about the ILLEGAL immigrants who have purchased homes.
There's been several articles posted about mortgage companies lending to ILLEGAL immigrants even though Fannie Mae and Fredie Mac do not purchase the mortgages of ILLEGAL immigrants.
ILLEGAL immigration exploded during the second BJ term and has continued, IMO they were virtually invited here by government and business refusing to acknowledge and obey the law.
We don't need new laws that are just as likely to be ignored when it suits government and business.
Let the ones stay who are not troublemakers and who have jobs as something like Permanently Residing Under the Color Of Law, PRUCOL. They can get in line to be citizens if they choose, other rights to be decided.
At the same time tell the world very clearly, "The invitation to come here ILLEGALLY is canceled, we will enforce our laws from now on, sorry."
I've posted findings of a Northeastern University study that stated that over two million "recent immigrants" have found jobs here between 2000 and 2004.
Yes, really. Both Propositions had to do with denying social benefits to illegals. I'd love to deny such benefits to legals too! That aside, the illegals are still being paid to work by US citizens. I agree no one wants to pay the social costs, but they do want them to work!
Ping.
The natives of coffee bean growing countries.
I generally agree with you. I do feel it's human nature to want to benefit from cheap labor or to be able to buy cheap products even if we know that certain laws were violated by the companies providing the cheap labor or cheap products. That's probably why many Americans are torn on the issue of illegal immigration. They know that it's in violation of our laws, but they do see certain benefits in allowing it to continue uninterrupted.
I simply do not understand why you post that drivel here, knowing that you will become entrenched in an argument (at best)......why here???
bttt
Nice try.
I am informed on the issue. That having been said, you really have no idea where I stand on this.
What I DO NOT UNDERSTAND is why these folks insist on posting the anti-Bush stuff on THIS WEBSITE! knowing full well that they are in for a fight, yet feigning surprise when they get jumped on.
I appreciate your opinion, but don't purport to know exactly where I stand and how I feel. I don't need the lectures.
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