Posted on 01/05/2005 2:34:33 PM PST by rocksblues
I'm not so quick to judge using their illnesses as cop-outs. I truly believe that they thought they were doing the right thing by offing themselves. Whether it was ACTUALLY the right thing? in my opinion, no. As a 35 year old woman with MS and 2 kids, I can feel for the guy. As my disease progresses and the pain and fatigue get worse, I am not looking forward to my husband having to do everything for me, right down to wiping my butt some day. Not a real glamorous way to live, but on the other hand, I don't think that killing myself is an option, either. I hope when the time comes, he has the strength to make the right decisions for me, and if he can't care for me (which, judging by his character, isn't probable), he can find the right place for me to be so that I get the care that I need. Of course, the ideal situation would be a cure, but since that doesn't look like it's going to pan out, I'm just going to watch my body go to hell while my mind stays sharp. I will be sad the day I can no longer use my fingers to type my thoughts, or my voice to speak them, if I progress to that point. Right now, it just looks like I'm headed for a wheelchair (because of heavy limbs and excruciating hip pain), and my fingers are going to quit at some point soon. I hate having to stop everything every day and take a 3 or 4 hour nap because I"m so tired that I"m incoherent. I thank God that we are in a position that we can pay someone to help me with my children (even though I'm a stay at home mom) on the days that family can't help out. I have to have a bit of compassion for the guy with MS. The pain can be truly unbearable, not to mention the self esteem issues. It's not fun to be buckling your 3 year old into his car seat and pee in your britches when you didn't even know you had to go. Think I want to be wearing Depends at my age? MS is such a humiliating disease, if you're not living with it, you have no idea. Even with all that goes on with my body, over which I have no control, I still don't want medicinal marijuana (that's the hippie throwbacks still rebelling against government, only by lobbying them now) and I most certainly do not condone suicide.
I'm totally disgusted with how they handled their sucide. Just leave an "it hurts" note and be done with it. Why drag politics into it? Ugh.
If they had repented of it they wouldn't have followed thru and killed themselves.
Lets try your logic with other sins, like adultery. Someone saying, "Lord I'm going to have sex with my neighbors wife. I hope my wife doesn't find out, but if she does please don't let her be hurt too bad. And I ask you now to forgive me for the sin of adultery that I am going to commit later tonight. Right now, Lord, it's party time and then later I'm going to bed that woman but please forgive me."
The above is NOTrepentance. It is a head game and the adulterer is impenitent and unforgiven.
Or try this one, "Dear Lord, I'm gonna take my shotgun and blow whoever's head off. But before I blow their head off, I ask you now to forgive me for the murder I'm about to commit."
I just reread my post and it sounds like something off the Jerry Springer Show.
Well, it's times like these that make me very happy to be an atheist.
It is infinitely better to believe in no god at all than to believe in a god who will not forgive people who take their own pain-ridden, diseased lives at a time of their own choosing rather than suffer just for the sake of some misplaced notion of faith.
If that's your god, I have to say he's pretty cruel and I have no use for him.
With that said, how many within-normal-limits marriages do you know of where the woman is 23 years older than hubby? Very weird...
Local Obit...
Helen G. Levine
1931-2005
Ethan J. Levine, 50, and Helen G. Levine, 73, died together through united self-deliverance on New Year's Day.
Ethan was born in St. Louis on June 21, 1954. He is survived by his brothers and their families, Philip Levine, his wife, Barbara and their children, Sarah and Michael of Novato, Calif.; and Rob Levine and his wife, Hillary, and children, Elisa and Jessie of San Francisco.
Helen was born in Detroit on May 31, 1931. She is survived by two daughters, Laura Tabbal and Audrey Lacatis, a granddaughter, Alima Tabbal; sister, Dorothy Bykkonen, and brother-in-law, William Bykkonen of Calumet, Mich.; and sons-in-law, Rick Negron and Tanni Tabbal of Olivebridge, N.Y.
Ethan was preceded in death by his parents, Ben Levine and Lillian Sanders Levine Smith; a brother, Steve Levine; and an uncle, Lloyd Sanders.
Helen was preceded in death by her parents, Mitchell and Elizabeth Gawronski; her first husband, John Lacatis; and her daughter, Monica Lacatis Negron.
Ethan, a 1972 graduate of University High School in Laramie, attended the Webber-Douglas Academy of Dramatic Arts in London before attending Kalamazoo College in Kalamazoo, Mich. He served as district sales manager for American President Lines in Detroit, and he managed Frontier Mall in Cheyenne. He was active on many community boards and civic organizations.
Helen graduated from Wayne State University in Detroit with a bachelor's degree in humanities and a master's in communications. In Detroit, she was director of Volunteer Services and Community Relations of Rehabilitation Institute. In Cheyenne, she was the public information officer for the Wyoming Department of Health for 12 years. She has been a regular columnist for the Casper Star-Tribune for the past six years. For 30 years, she was an advocate for people with disabilities, serving on several coalitions to gain accessibility: the Mayor's Council for People with Disabilities; writing a regular column in the Wyoming Tribune-Eagle titled "The Squeaky Wheel" and was appointed by Gov. Dave Freudenthal to the Wyoming Senior Services Board.
Cremation will be completed through a previous arrangement. There will be no service. Those who wish to make a contribution in their memory may do so to the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, the American Diabetes Association, the American Heart Association or any wildlife protection organizations.
This is a paid obituary.
Are they still around? I thought they all went to France. At least, all of them that could come up with the airfare.
Is Suicide Hereditary?
One of the big news stories of the past week (January 22-28, 2000) was a report of a research study which confirmed the idea that suicidal tendencies may be inherited. The story received extensive coverage, but when we look closer at the study we learn, as we often do, that the findings were blown out of proportion.
The researchers, Drs. David Bakish and Pavel Hrdina of Royal Ottawa Hospital, did manage to get some important reservations about their research mentioned in news coverage. Mostly, though, the press played the increasingly popular game of glossing over the facts and concentrating instead on sensational speculation. Let's look at exactly what Bakish and Hrdina found.
They found that the percentage of a group of suicidal depressive patients with a specific gene mutation was higher than the same percentage in a group of people with no mental illness. Incidentally, they did not, as many news stories implied, find that this percentage was higher among suicidal depressives than among non-suicidal depressives. The sample of non-suicidal depressives was small and a statistical test does not find a significant difference between the two groups in this percentage.
So what was the percentage? It was 42% of the group of suicidal depressives. The percentage is based on a sample of 78 suicidal depressives, so 32 of the 78 had the mutation. In other words, more than half did not have the mutation, so leaping to the conclusion that suicide is genetic is clearly unjustified. If suicidal tendencies are usually unrelated to genetic differences, then obviously suicide cannot be described as a genetic phenomenon.
Neither could you draw the less spectacular conclusion that the specific gene mutation predisposes people to suicide without knowing considerably more about the sample. The groups of depressive and non-depressive people were matched for age, sex, and ethnicity, but many other characteristics which might affect the tendency to suicide were not controlled. For example, the press release from Royal Ottawa Hospital mentions alcoholism and abuse in childhood as contributing environmental factors in suicide, and another well-known factor associated with depression is poverty. If the groups differed on these or other factors associated with suicide and depression, then the relationship of the gene mutation to suicide may be indirect or even accidental.
The researchers did manage to impress upon some journalists that the finding needs to be replicated – that is, that other researchers have to find similar differences in similar studies. Just as your next door neighbour's purchase of a winning lottery ticket does not imply that your own next purchase will be a winning one, so a single finding in a single study does not imply that the next study will produce the same finding. The finding could just be, like a winning lottery ticket, an accident.
Finally, the way in which this gene mutation is supposed to have its effect is not clear from the information which has been published in the last couple of days (the scholarly article about this research is not to appear till February 7). The press release implies that the mutation increases (sic) the number of serotonin 2A receptors in the brain, but nowhere is it explicitly stated that the mutation is known to have this effect.
In summary, the findings reported by Drs. Bakish and Hrdina seem to be what researchers unblushingly call suggestive. They are certainly worth investigating with further research. However, they do not justify the conclusion that suicide has any genetic origin.
Is Suicide Hereditary? © 2000, Coolth
I guess one's conclusion depends on one's perspective. If one believes that life here-and-now is mostly about self in the here-and-now then they might go your way, but if one believes that life here-and-now is more about God and hereafter than it is self and here-and-now then a different conclusion can be reached.
Have you ever read the Gospel of John?
Intense personal suffering & quality of life vs taking one's life is a tough issue especially if you're the one suffering. I've been close to people who were suffering and debated with themselves whether to do it or not. But I hope if I'm in the situation that I can stay focused on keeping my life about living to serve Christ, even to a hard end.
The thing that I have a real problem with is people saying that these people will not be forgiven for killing themselves.
That is sad and cruel.
Actually, Carbon Monoxide poisoning turns you cherry red.
Samson's true intention was to destroy the Philistines which meant he had to sacrifice himself to do so. Hardly suicide. It's no more suicide than a soldier covering a grenade about to go off with his body in order to protect his fellow soldiers.
Suicide is the ultimate rejection of God. To say otherwise is dangerously misleading.
That is sad and cruel.
Self murderers pass the point of no return with murder against their soul. I agree it's sad, but it ain't cruel. God makes the rules not you or I, and what God says is right.
"Do not believe that he who seeks to comfort you lives untroubled in the simple and quiet words that sometimes do you good. His life has much difficulty and sadness. Were it otherwise, he would have never been able to find these words." Ranier Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
I don't know how I found my way to this site but I knew Helen and Ethan and truly admired them both. They were vibrant and passionate about each other and, in their time here, lived life to the fullest. With yours as an exception, the comments on this site were just plain mean.
I don't think that it was the MS alone that forced a decision. Sometimes you simply don't know what people are privately facing.
I appreciate your empathy for the hardships they faced and I wish you ease and comfort with your MS. I know that it must be tough to read posts like this- it was for me. I find it unfathomable that so many people read the obituary with such glee.
Knowing them, I believe they recognized that their story would make waves but I don't think that it was Bush or MS or job insults that led to their decision. I think it came down to each of them being fearful of living life without the other. To the others: Ethan and Helen Levine were examples of lives well-lived. Please try to find it in your hearts to have sympathy for the conditions which led to their decision and NOT to delight solely in their end decision.
LOL!
Yes... His platform.
It does not include Abortion rights.
Abimelech - act of arrogance.
Samson - self sacrifice.
Saul - act of arrogance
Achitopel - evil man, likely oppressed. (as to this "Christian Church's long history of refusing burial in hallowed ground to suicides" - you are thinking specifically of Catholicism.)
Zimri - evil man, likely oppressed.
In only one of these cases do we see an act to emulate. These men are there for the purpose of story and teaching, not role models. Would you have us believe that their other evil acts should be condoned simply because God does not come out in the very next verse saying "And this is bad!".
Suicide is an act of the faithless and without faith...... I do believe that suicide can come from oppression or possession and the circumstances of that can be determinate. But in any case God has never condoned killing oneself.
It's Bush's fault!
haha!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.