Republican to Lead Immigration Revolt Against Bush

Reuters ^ | Jan 12, 2005 | Alan Elsner

[investigateworld]

I can see any "major" employer of illegals giving them them boot before complying...then hiring another bunch. It's just too profitable to hire "off the books" especially in construction. I remember well writing out monthly checks for $5500 for Work Comp. Some months during certain phases of the projects I didn't get $500.
No matter how good it looks on paper, no way will congress fund it to do it right. The fact that it allow Soc. Sec. funds to be tapped by a foreign gov't should be a deal breaker if AARP isn't a total left wing whack job. (just my two cents)

[Ravenstar]

If you think this is single issue you have not looked at the situation. You need to go back and do a lot of more in depth reading on this.

Ravenstar

[citizen]

Hang tough, full speed ahead, we are on YOUR SIDE of this issue Rep. Tancredo.

I echo your sentiments!

There will be no further compromise by me in future elections.

[EagleMamaMT]

"They will sell you, me, the Mexicans, anyone for their wants and call it "free enterprise", just like slavery was called the same."

Exactly! :)

[citizen]

This could be the issue that puts Hillary in the White House.

Yep, could be. No compromise in 06 & beyond.

[JustAnAmerican]

What I find worth keeping in mind, is that the same posters here who support Illegals over Americans, in every one of Poker's posts, agreed 100% with what Poker said(just go back through the posts), including but not limited to his declaration that everyone who was against illegal immigration was either a Socialist/Communist or Racist.

This all by itself tells me a great deal about the pro-illegal posters on this board.

[meadsjn]

The borderless, corporate plutocrats are waging economic warfare against our entire society, from the Middle Class on down, NOT just the blue collar demographic.

About the only sector not affected are government workers and retirees who coincidentally make up the largest clump of union employees in the nation.

Some of the most outspoken free traitors on these threads are of that sort.

[bam]

That is an excellent quote and very succinctly tells the truth about what is going on. Too bad that we have lost that honesty and realism of 1924 and replaced it with a form of voodoo reality shored up by the modern day PC drones.

[Sam the Sham]

Especially when you note that the Dems did pretty okay in the West.

The combination of anti-outsourcing and anti-illegals planks could give the Dems the kind of "little guy vs the fat cats" issue they always do well with.

[rolling_stone]

Anyways you all can continue with your mutual admiration society and trying to declare victory on this thread running out of steam and try to cover up the cogent points made on this thread.

Let me know when you make a cogent point, so far all I have seen is untrue bleeding heart or exploitive nonsense and name calling from your side. Do you not live in an area innundated and affected by illegal aliens or do you profit from them ?

To believe that illegals take only janitorial jobs etc is ludicrous and as such you must believe that all people who do those jobs stay with them. Almost 4 million agricultural workers were given amnesty last time around, how many of those people are still picking lettuce? The Department of Labor will certify whether jobs qualify under the proposed guest worker program, all jobs are available not just labor jobs, only criteria is that no citizens or legal workers want the jobs at prevailing wages.(wages already depressed by illegals) OK so hire a roofers helper for $10 an hour when he really is a roofer and should be getting $16 per hour...

[Havoc]

Good for Tancredo. Sick 'em!

[Southack]

"Americans are not Nazis because they want their laws enforced and want to repel this invasion in a humanitarian way. Your posts are constantly littered with allusions to Nazis and you are intentionally implying that those that want illegals deported are like Nazis. This is a very loose and false analogy."

You've misunderstood the point. My point was "scale."

There is a constant cry from people who know nothing about law enforcement to "enforce existing laws" and "deport them all now."

What I pointed out to you was just how LARGE such a deportation would be. In sheer size, deporting 8+ million illegals (some on this thread claim 25+ million) would dwarf the largest roundup of people in Europe circa 1938 to 1945 (6+ million people).

Yet the know-nothings can't seem to grasp that "deporting them all now" with sheer brute force would require MORE trains and more internment camps for our 8+ million illegals than what were required for the largest roundups and deportations in Europe and WW2 Soviet Union.

Thus, from a *logistics* point of view, calling for the application of sheer brute force faces immense funding, public image, and political hurdles. So simply crying "deport them all now" might make a few uneducated souls feel better for a moment, but it won't solve our real-world problem.

On the other hand, what BOTH Tancredo and Bush have proposed in their competing immigration proposals *will* solve our real-world problem because *both* of those plans do something different and more clever than what has been done in past immigration crackdowns.

...And that "something different" in both plans is to offer rewards for illegal aliens to register themselves and their employers with our government.

Such registration changes the dynamics of this immigration problem. Instead of requiring sheer brute force, suddenly the rewards in Tancredo and Bush's plans have illegals ratting out their employers in order to get their rewards...such that other additional existing legal (civil and criminal and bureaucratic) tools can be brought to bear on a group that was previously immune due to its inherent anonymity: the employers of illegals.

And that clever use of rewards to encourage illegals to rat out their employers is a BRILLIANT way to change our vast immigration problem from one that only brute force could impact in the past to one in the future where many not-so-subtle (e.g. IRS) tools can be employed in this fight.

This is time-tested. Law enforcement has used bounties and rewards to get criminals to rat out their employers for centuries. Such rewards work.

...And it is also more easily enacted into law than something that would logistically require more trains and internment camps than what was seen in Germany in WW2.

[Southack]

"Time will tell and history is on my side."

Bounties and rewards for criminals to turn in their employers have been time-tested successfully for centuries. Such rewards work.

That's what Tancredo and Bush are proposing in their competing immigration plans: reward illegals for turning in their employers.

There is no doubt that such rewards will work.

[dfrussell]

This could be the issue that puts Hillary in the White House.

Then one would think that the Republicans pushing another alien-alien-in-free would cease and desist.

Any Republican going along with this should have a *very* contested primary... just for starters.

[rolling_stone]

Once registered, there is no doubt that the IRS will enforce tax withholding payments by employers of illegals. Once they are no longer anonymous, there is no doubt that union reps will insist that union scale be paid where required. Once registered, the INS knows which employers need to be audited for compliance.

Once again you are dreaming..employers that hire illegals want to pay as little as possible, just look at Barlowmaker, wanting to pay half the prevailing rate a true exploiter..do you think he will give up lining his pockets? No they will find a way around the law..example post a job for a helper pay them helpers wages when actually they are a tradesman...record less hours than what they actually worked...who will know-the guest worker, will he complain? not likely..work under poor conditions..will the guest worker complain? no. what is his option, return to his country and make $5 a day..Fair Labor Standards Act needs to be enforced but it just superficially enforced..the US government as an employer had to be repeatedly sued to pay their own employees according to the act. INS-ICE already knows most of the employers or where to look for them..auditing them is the problem..how many people and how much money will be needed..LOOK at Tancredo's proposal it mentions the guest worker program coming on board after there is a 2% audit of existing known employers...2% like that's really going to do much?

These are things that aren't happening to currently anonymous employers of illegals.

I don't see much change under the proposals, just a token effort.

How to end that anonymity? Tancredo and Bush both suggest plans that give *rewards* to illegal aliens to identify those employers.

Anonymity is not the problem, but you can't see that..its a small part of the problem..so what if the employers are identified? An audit must take place, a real audit with talking to employees, checking time cards, job descriptions, actual work they are doing not just checking social security cards...

Do rewards entice people to identify others? Yes. Is it time-tested (e.g. wanted dead or alive bounty reward posters)? Yes. Is this approach *different* than our current approach? Yes.

Right now thousands of tips are turned in reporting illegals and employers, they don't have the resources to follow up, more identification is like saying yes there are ten million workers, now go get them..it is worthless without teeth to back it up.

Too bad that you oppose such registration. Too bad that you want us to continue letting illegals and their employers remain anonymous... Too bad.

Too bad you don't understand how laws are enforced. Millions of people are registered drivers, and speed, how many get caught?

Tancredo's proposal has some baby teeth in it but is still lacking.

Some problems I see are lack of ability to check if a SS number is being used by more than one person..there is a nebulous well if it looks suspicious investigate it..not concrete. Most important there is no way to know if prevailing wages are correct due to the current massive employment of illegals..without a correct prevailing wage, little is gained for legal workers and illegals/guest workers will be utilized without us knowing if there would be legal workers available at a higher wage.

contract workers are not addressed, and is a loophole. you can contract with someone to mow your lawn or contract for a new roof or plumbing. Contractors (unlicensed or not needing license)can sprout up overnight and disappear the next day.

There is no limit to the number of guest workers..the Dept of labor will have to ok all jobs and ICE will have to audit and enforce them..there should be a budget and plan to do these things and limit the number of guest workers to that number that can be effectively enforced, 2% superficial audit isn't going to cut it. It is foolish to try and implement a law without a comprehensive plan to enforce it. Throwing 10,000 new employees into the mix sounds good, but what can they do with 20 million people? Besides auditing employers, who is going to check on the families of these guest workers? What will it cost to have a surprise, physical check to each guest workers home to see if their family is living with them? How often must it be done?

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1188&c=13

Presidente Bush's proposal to pay a fine of $1500 instead of returning home is a fatal flaw. It is an amnesty no matter what you call it and is contrary to stopping future illegal immigration. http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/HR3534_BorderSecurity0604.pdf

[ninenot]

Don't forget Canada. PRChina wants to get into the oil-sands business up there and is trying to buy a Canadian producer.

[dfrussell]

...And that "something different" in both plans is to offer rewards for illegal aliens to register themselves and their employers with our government.

This may sound good to you on paper, but given that the people who would be running the program are the same ones who are responsible for the current situation, there is small expectation that another round of become-an-american-free will do anything to curtail the problem.

[Southack]

"Once again you are dreaming..employers that hire illegals want to pay as little as possible..."

It's not up to the employer.

The rewards in Tancredo's and Bush's competing immigration plans encourage illegal aliens to turn in their employers. Once an employer is turned in by an illegal, that employer is going to become subject to a host of U.S. laws such as minimum wage, union scale, workman's comp, tax withholdings, etc...all things that are effectively enforced against employers already today...that will then be effectively enforced against those illegal employers that get ratted out.

...And it's no "daydream" to think that the IRS isn't going to ignore such a ratted-out employer.