Air Force Campaigns to Save Jet Fighter

NY Times ^ | January 13, 2005 | LESLIE WAYNE

[neverdem]

Joe Cavaretta/Associated Press
An F/A-22 crashed during a test flight near Las Vegas on Dec. 20.

[Flavius]

I just dont understand why we cant have chinese make em

[tbeatty]

I have to agree that this program is one that could be trimmed without risking our strategic superpower status. I love this plane and am a pilot myself but it's clear we own the skies with or without this plane.

[kimosabe31]

bump

[Poohbah]

The F/A-22 is a prime example of Augustine's Law. We need to get cost containment as a top priority in Air Force acquisition, or we will unilaterally disarm the Air Force.

[1FASTGLOCK45]

We could have the Chinese make'm, but they will steal our design ;)

[Shermy]

"With the work on the project spread over 43 states"

Monetarily inefficient, but the MIC calculated by spreading them out they have bought more congressional votes. A calculating calculation knowing the product would have faced cuts.

[Shermy]

I love this plane and am a pilot myself but it's clear we own the skies with or without this plane.

It was, or has become, a boondoggle but the ciruclation of money between politicians and the backers is thick.

[Flavius]

to funny...

[TXnMA]

Take the money for a couple of Raptors and use it to build asquadron of new A-10s. One heckuva lot more bang for the buck -- and far more useful in the wars we are now fighting.

And the Hog can do what we will have to wait until 2013 for the JSF to do. And we know the A-10 works -- very well...

[FreeAtlanta]

I have to admit, that isn't a bad idea. At some point, missiles and robot aircraft will make the F-22 as vunerable as the next aircraft.

Put a bunch of Warthogs up, and increase our chance of getting the job done.

[zzen01]

The F-22 was and is a boondoogle of the worst sort! The USAF sold it's soul for this POS!

[neverdem]

Looking for Cuts, Pentagon Turns to Jet Fighter Program

From that link: At the moment, the fighter, known as the Raptor, costs about $258 million a plane. That is based on an overall cost of $71.8 billion, and the Air Force's plans to buy 277 Raptors.

Unfortunately, we need to replace aircraft as they are getting old and worn out.

[zzen01]

+ the F-22 has Merrill Mcpeak's fingerprints ALL over it!

[GoldenOrchid]

I read an article that stated that the plane costs 133 mil. but you have to ask which cost is this. I still think it is worth it. I am no expert but our plnes are all aging, aren't they?

[neverdem]

I am no expert but our plnes are all aging, aren't they?

Other than the latest copies of F16s and F18s coming off active production lines, most of the other series of jets average about 20 years old, IIRC.

[endthematrix]

Looking at that pic, I'm amazed at the structural integrity of the plane. The plane is basically one machined billet of titanium.

[GoldenOrchid]

One Very Important consideration should be fully expliting our high tech manufacturing abilities. And even more important loosing that capability. If we do not produce this air craft might we eventually loose this air craft manufacturing ability ?

[rmmcdaniell]

But even though it is the Air Force's No. 1 priority, the F/A-22 tops the list of $30 billion in weapons programs that Mr. Rumsfeld wants to chop from the fiscal 2006 budget and years beyond as the Bush administration seeks to rein in spending while the costs of the war in Iraq continue unabated and a budget deficit looms.

This is the problem I have with the War on Terror. It has become a giant international welfare program. We should have killed Saddam, killed the Taliban and just keep killing any more terrorists who arise and threaten us. I don't get it, they destroy the world trade center causing more than $1 trillion in damages and somehow we are obligated to break our bank rebuilding these third world $h!t holes. We're scaling back the F-22 program, retiring an aircraft carrier, and canceling the production of new submarines all to bring "democracy" to these ungrateful demonic savages. To top it all of we then send economic aid to the palestinians and ME terrorist supporting nations. China is licking her chops and laughing at how stupid we are.

[Vineyard]

The cost of the F-22 can be computed one of two ways ....

a. Figure out what it costs to build the next plane - that is the procurement cost. (And per the article - it costs about $120 Million per plane.)

b. Figure out what it costs to build the planned number of planes at $133 million per plane. Add in the R&D costs of $40 Billion (this money is way high ... but is also "sunk costs" ..), then divide the total program cost by the number of planes purchased. Adding in the R&D costs to a limited procurement of planes .. and wow .. the price per plane is very very high.

Unfortunately, people who want to kill various programs will cite the total cost (#b.) ... without factoring in the fact that if the plane was cancelled, the per plane cost would be astronomical, and then the whole R&D game starts over as everyone starts trying to design a new plane.

And the JSF is still down the line ... and by the time it goes operational, do you want to bet that there will be problems, cost overruns, etc., that will make the $50 - $50 million projected cost to be a pipe dream - and way under!!

Ultimately, once the plane is designed and fielded - the cost per plane per item a. is what should be used ... and then a comparision of what you get for that money be used to compare with other options.
Twin engines (more reliability!!) and supersonic cruise without afterburners .... NICE!!! The JSF - single engine ... might not be quite as capable, and if the JSF costs 1/2 as much, but can only do 1/2 the missions ... then maybe we need a fair number of the F-22.

As to those who suggest more A-10s ... remember that the Wart Hog is for close air support and killing tanks. The F-22 is PRIMARILY an Air Superiority Fighter that can have other missions. I don't think we will EVER see the A-10 try to act as an Air Superiority Fighter.

Mike