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Official - Americans in GULAGs
CNN ^ | 11 Feb 05 | Barbara Starr

Posted on 02/11/2005 6:24:02 PM PST by koba37

Edited on 02/11/2005 6:29:06 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

A document from Russian archives lists American servicemen in Soviet custody in May 1945.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. military service members may have been imprisoned and died in Soviet forced-labor camps during the 20th century, according to a Pentagon report to be released Friday.


(Excerpt) Read more at aiipowmia.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: coldwar; gulags; gulagstudy; koreanwar; powmia; russia

1 posted on 02/11/2005 6:24:02 PM PST by koba37
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To: koba37

Fifty years will pass since the end of the Soviet Union, and we will STILL discover horrific new facts about socialist/liberal/communist atrocities.


2 posted on 02/11/2005 6:26:45 PM PST by FormerACLUmember (Honoring Saint Jude's assistance every day.)
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To: koba37
in the so-called gulags.

"So-called"? They sure as hell weren't day-spas.

3 posted on 02/11/2005 6:28:31 PM PST by silent_jonny (Quiet, you!)
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To: koba37
Official - Americans in GULAGs......The Terri Schiavo case!

/GULAGS in America...

/sarcasm

4 posted on 02/11/2005 6:30:09 PM PST by maestro
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To: koba37

This was known for a long time now. Only liberals were denying it.


5 posted on 02/11/2005 6:36:52 PM PST by chudogg (www.chudogg.blogspot.com)
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To: silent_jonny
On a historical note GULAG is an acronym from the Soviet prison system that stood for general administration. Over the years is became the standard term for a political prison camp, like xerox instead of copy.

I recommend Anne Applebaum's book GULAG. I didn't think it was worthy of the Pulitzer it won, but it tells how bad it really was. There is a heartbreaking story of a woman who had a child in the GULAG and how the child was systematically starved to death. For those interested in the evils of communism I recommend The Black Book of Communism. Originally published in France it is a bit difficult to find, is very text bookish to read, but details the crimes of most of the major communist governments.

Since its inception communist governments have kept POWs from every war they ever fought. I'm not sure how anyone can think we got all our POWs back from the Korean and Viet Nam wars. It would buck the trend.

6 posted on 02/11/2005 6:44:15 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: silent_jonny

I wasn't clear in my point. How could the prisoners in Soviet GULAGs be "so-called GULAGs." GULAG was the Soviet term for the government body that ran the camps. They are GULAGs by definition.


7 posted on 02/11/2005 6:47:09 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: USNBandit

Amazon still showing the "Black Book" as available. I recommend it too. Another very interesting book on the old Soviet system is "Lenin's Tomb" by David Remnick, Moscow correspondent for the Washington Post during the collapse of the Soviet Union.


8 posted on 02/11/2005 6:53:54 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: USNBandit

GULag is an acronym. It means Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerej (Main Directorate of Camps). For the naysayers who claim the Sovs wouldn't have dared do this to Americans - rubbish. They did it to German POWS (some released after Stalin's death), Hungarians (one was found 3 years ago in a mental hospital - returned to Hungary and passed away 2 years ago), Japanese, Poles, etc., etc., etc.. There were some non-military Americans who were sent to the camps, but they were fellow travelers who fell afoul of the security apparatus for being foreign. Some were released (after Stalin's death).


9 posted on 02/11/2005 7:15:24 PM PST by koba37
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To: 1066AD

Contrary to what some on FR claim about present day Russia and censorship - "Black Book on Communism" and "Lenin's Tomb" are easily found in Moscow (and elsewhere) in Russian. The "Black Book on Communism" was the most purchased book at the book store "Moscow" last year. For any who doubtthis - I have them both in the Russian language versions.


10 posted on 02/11/2005 7:18:16 PM PST by koba37
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To: koba37

This has been known for a long time by people who follow such matters, but it has never been officially admitted by the government. Kudos to Bush and Rumsfeld if they finally release the records.

The next question is what about the POW-MIAs in Vietnam? It's well known that many were left to rot, and it's fairly well established that some of them were sent to China and/or the USSR, where they died in prison camps.

Two of the people who covered up their fates and blocked any real investigation were Kerry and McCain. If not for them, some of the POWs might have been recovered while they were still alive.

It's doubtful whether anything will be released on the Vietnam POWs, however. Too many of the players are still in power, and we wouldn't want to embarrass them.


11 posted on 02/11/2005 7:22:37 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

We and Russia were on the same side in 1944,,why would they have held our men???


12 posted on 02/11/2005 7:24:12 PM PST by cajungirl (freeps are my peeps.)
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To: USNBandit

For those who read and understand Russian go to this link:

http://www.idf.ru/editions.shtml You should be able to download their book on the GULags - called "GULAG." I can't get the links to work right now. I have a hardcopy - it's a book full of documental evidence, maps, reports, etc., all from the Soviet (now Russian archives). It's published by the Internation Democracy Foundation - headed by Aleksandr Yakovlev (the man behind "Perestroika" and "Glasnost" - to any lurking Golitsynites - don't bother responding to me, we've already beat the dead horse of the Perestroika topic to death).

You can also go to this link:
http://www.idf.ru/editions.shtml

Here you will find letters of complain to Stalin, etc., about the abuses (there were some brave people in the Soviet Union - or perhaps, naive). There are also recollections of GULag survivors.


13 posted on 02/11/2005 7:24:50 PM PST by koba37
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To: 1066AD; USNBandit
I would recommend also, as a very readable version of what's in the Black Book that preceded the fall of the wall, Failed Utopias: Methods of Coercion in Communist Regimes by Arch Puddington. Arch is (was?) an RFE/RL guy and it's a brilliant, if little-known, book. It is more uniform in style (being the work of a single author) and less stilted, academic, and, well, French, than the Black Book. I also found the authors of the Black Book kind of hard to take. "look at us, we're wonderful, we were rioting in the streets to help these guys win but we think they're bad guys now." Well, they were too stupid to see that they were bad guys back when lots of us had no problem with that; do you really think they're going to have great insights now?

Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago (which rhymes in Russian, Archipelag Gulag), is a wonderful book but Solzhenitsyn is a very demanding writer and few people can stick with him through three volumes of Stalinist perfidy.

Robert Conquest is another author whose pre-Soviet-collapse work stood up perfectly to the new revelations. The Great Terror makes sense of the show trials and purges of the thirties, and Harvest of Sorrow explains how Communist leaders used famine as a political weapon (much as Communist Robert Mugabe, and islamist leaders in Sudan, do today).

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

14 posted on 02/11/2005 7:25:31 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F (I Fought The Commies, And I Won)
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To: cajungirl

They were "Allies" - and they liberated camps in Eastern Europe. The liberated POWS were sick, injured, etc. - and they would not have been able to cross the front lines to their own armies. Therefore, the Sovs sent them to the rear to camps where they were treated and isolated (couldn't have them mingling with the locals could they?).


15 posted on 02/11/2005 7:27:02 PM PST by koba37
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To: Criminal Number 18F

Solzhenitsyn is very hard to stick with - perhaps he's too damn "smart" for the rest of us mere mortals! His writing/works are immensely popular in Russia. His latest series is called "200 Years Together" - a History book. I have it, but haven't read it yet. I have been told it has some pretty anti-Semitic rantings in it.


16 posted on 02/11/2005 7:30:03 PM PST by koba37
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To: koba37

I wouldn't be suprised to find that some of the prisoners in the Soviet Gulag system were POWs from Korea or Vietnam, either.


17 posted on 02/11/2005 7:31:24 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: USNBandit

I wouldn't be surprised if Korea transferred POWs to the Soviet Union - a lot of the Korean leadership came from the Soviet Union. Vietnam is a whole different situation.


18 posted on 02/11/2005 7:40:19 PM PST by koba37
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To: Criminal Number 18F

Get the abridged version. It's authorized, too. Only one volume. I'm reading it currently, and loving it.


19 posted on 02/11/2005 7:48:14 PM PST by sporkgoddess
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To: cajungirl

You'd have to ask Stalin that. He was not a pleasant character, and as the war wound down he was already maneuvering for the postwar advantage.

Why did Stalin kill 10,000 Polish officers about that time? I suppose clinton would say, "Because he could."


20 posted on 02/11/2005 8:10:16 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: koba37

read later


21 posted on 02/11/2005 8:12:10 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd anima)
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To: koba37

A fascinating story here about one of the lucky ones who survived "Nacht Und Nebel" and then avoided that fate (long read, 166 pages but worth it).
http://www.jerseyheritagetrust.org/edu/resources/pdf/hassall.pdf

Changing the subject, is it not true that the "wedding cake" buildings in Moscow were built by German POW after WW2, ditto many buildings in Alma Ata (Almaty) ?


22 posted on 02/11/2005 8:13:49 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: cajungirl

Russia was never on anyones side. They were for themselves.


23 posted on 02/11/2005 8:14:37 PM PST by cynicom (<p)
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To: 1066AD

True - I have a friend whose grandmother was punished for giving the German PWs bread - they were working on the ugly sisters (I live in one of the sisters).


24 posted on 02/11/2005 8:15:14 PM PST by koba37
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To: Cicero

ping


25 posted on 02/11/2005 8:19:15 PM PST by southland (If Ted Kennedy had driven a volkswagen he could have been president)
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To: sporkgoddess

I still have my originals from the seventies! Isn't Solzhenitsyn unique in his... what would you call it? Kind of a mordant sarcasm. It's very Russian, but then, so is he.

Your name made me laugh. For some reason I visualize kali holding six sporks.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F


26 posted on 02/11/2005 8:39:08 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F (I Fought The Commies, And We Won)
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To: koba37

I read Gulag after it was published. I was in the military then and it made the cold war real. At the same time Reagan was calling it the evil empire. We have to be willing to call evil by its name.


27 posted on 02/11/2005 8:51:48 PM PST by gogipper
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To: gogipper

Had a realization - I was not responding to your statement about anti-semitism. I would want to read that material for myself.


28 posted on 02/11/2005 8:53:21 PM PST by gogipper
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To: Cicero

President Bush the first knew of POW's in Vietnam, and was also part of the coverup while there were still some alive in captivity. The story was one of the reasons for the intense hatred Perot had for him.


29 posted on 02/11/2005 9:25:06 PM PST by jeremiah (Either take the gloves off of our troops, or let them come home NOW)
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To: koba37

"I have it, but haven't read it yet. I have been told it has some pretty anti-Semitic rantings in it."

I've been told you were idiot, but I haven't met you yet.

Suggest you give specifics when you slander someone.


30 posted on 02/11/2005 11:39:15 PM PST by rcocean
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To: rcocean

How is saying you've heard that his new book may contain anti-Semitism in it slander? I think I made it clear that I didn't know that for a fact. What I do know first hand from watching the television show he hosted in Russia is that he is a slavophile with what could be construed as anti-Semitic leanings. Have you read what he says about America and Americans?


31 posted on 02/12/2005 3:21:06 AM PST by koba37
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To: gogipper

I wasn't stating for fact that his new series is anti-Semitic, but it has been reported to have such material. That's no different from someone saying they heard a film contained something offensive, but they ddn't know for sure because they haven't seen it. Solzhenitsyn is on the record blaming Jews for destroying the Russian state (the Tsarist state). Read "August 1914"


32 posted on 02/12/2005 3:25:06 AM PST by koba37
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To: jeremiah

Where is the proof of Bush I's complicity in this alleged coverup? Perot was bilked out of a lot of money from some people who exploited his sincere concern for the fate of American MIAs. These exploiters use the hopes of family members of the MIAs and their supporters in order to earn a lot of money to conduct bogus rescue missions. The most disgusting ones are those who used to be in the military themselves.


33 posted on 02/12/2005 3:28:23 AM PST by koba37
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To: koba37
"How is saying you've heard that his new book may contain anti-Semitism in it slander? I think I made it clear that I didn't know that for a fact. What I do know first hand from watching the television show he hosted in Russia is that he is a slavophile with what could be construed as anti-Semitic leanings. Have you read what he says about America and Americans"

Fine. When you have an actual quote or evidence - charge him with hating Jews. Until then, stop with the smears.

OBTW, I heard you are a Nazi symp, a self-hating Jews, and you were involved in the Kennedy assassination

Of course I have no proof, It's just what I heard.
34 posted on 02/12/2005 8:32:09 AM PST by rcocean
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To: koba37

The proof is, he was CIA director and vice president, then president. There were POW's alive in SE Asia long after it was reported that the last had come home. That is proof enough for me.


35 posted on 02/12/2005 3:12:21 PM PST by jeremiah (Either take the gloves off of our troops, or let them come home NOW)
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To: rcocean

There is plenty of proof, but you have to be able to open your mind to the possibility that this "icon" could have such views. I have recently purchased his "200 Years Together" (in Russian). It's a history of Jews and Russians. Instead of translating everything he infers, I'll provide you with the following link:

http://www.reason.com/0405/co.cy.traditional.shtml

Now, tell me again how I'm smearing him?


36 posted on 02/16/2005 9:46:04 PM PST by koba37
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To: koba37
Thanks for the link. I don't think a dispute about how many Jews were in the Russian revolution constitutes being a Jew hater. The Jews did form a disproportionate percentage of Russian revolutionaries. Maybe they were justified to do so.

I also think the people attacking him, on this issue, are playing with numbers. Of Lenin's top 4 lieutenants -3 were Jewish. Of the seven Politburo members after Lenin's death, 1 was a Georgian (Stalin), three were Jews (Trotsky,zinonov, kamanev) and two were Russians married to Jews (Bucharian and Rykow). The first president of the USSR (Svedlov) was a Jew.

I get a little tired of people getting smeared as anti-semitic. It's a serious charge. Hitler was an anti-semite, he actually killed Jews because they were Jews. We devalue the word when we run around charging everyone we don't like as an anti-semite.
37 posted on 02/17/2005 1:33:42 AM PST by rcocean
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To: rcocean

To understand how Solzhenitsyn can be thought to be anti-Semitic is to be able to understand how subtle Russian anti-Semitism is. It gets lost in the translation, however, his language is what some in the States would call "coded" - a lot of inference. You may note I never said I believed he was anti-Semitic. His writing, essays, novels, etc., do have their place in history, however, it does not make him an infallable person.

And to be fair and balanced ( ;) ) - here's Solzhenitsyn discussing his book:

http://english.mn.ru/english/issue.php?2002-51-9

Enjoy


38 posted on 02/17/2005 7:12:54 AM PST by koba37
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