[68skylark]

This article illustrates "the fallacy of the idealized past." Chavez pines for an imagined past of female modesty, chastity and purity -- a past which she compares unfavorably to the grubby present-day. It's a very common flaw of the left and the right.

In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.

[MonroeDNA]

Expect your post to be ignored. The church ladies are in a tizzie.

[maica]

In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.
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Examples??

[pawdoggie]

This article illustrates "the fallacy of the idealized past." Chavez pines for an imagined past of female modesty, chastity and purity -- a past which she compares unfavorably to the grubby present-day. It's a very common flaw of the left and the right. In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.

Not reading your history is a common failing of the ignorant. In fact, women in this country had an incredible sense of modesty (often criticized by the Hugh Hefner's of our land) from the earliest days of our Republic right up until the 1920's. This may explain why sexual assault was virtually unheard of, and why (in public at least) women were treated with a seemingly exaggerated courtesy and respect, right up until the the middle of the 20th Century.

[ChocChipCookie]

How far back in the past are we talking about? The 1940's or the Roman Empire?

[rockabyebaby]

>>>In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine<<<

On what planet did you witness the sordid, grubby and immodest past?

[clearsight]

"In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine." Please elaborate for us.
and.........there were tv crews around to tape the events and disseminate it into homes all around the world...right????? I am alluding to the idea that personal debauchery's influence was pretty much limited to those within eye shot or ear shot of the event in the past, but not theses days. Which means we have more responsibility to keep our personal perversity's private.

[A Ruckus of Dogs]

In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.

We didn't have a 30% illegitimacy rate in the past and tons of fatherless welfare families the taxpayers have to support.

[SMARTY]

I don't know. Don't you ever get tired of all that flesh shoved in your face? To sell toothpaste, cars, beer...?? It degrades women and I am so opposed to whatever degrades women. I see them and I think, how dare yo do this to your 'sisters'. After all, we are all in it together. If one element or group lowers the bar, everyone pays. I'm waiting for decent behavior and demeanor to return. For my money, what in the world is more alluring than a modest and properly behaved young woman, or any woman??? When I was younger I went to a party where some of the more 'cool' kids were attending. The girl that everyone always idolized at school was dead and disgustingly drunk. That was my lesson. NOT COOL then or ever.

[Capriole]

. . .the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.

Why do you say that? If we are referring to the nineteenth century, which is generally considered the golden age of modesty and decorum, the private letters, diaries, and news articles of the time provide a very balanced picture of the thinking of the times. The view we get from a serious study of mid-nineteenth century social psychology is that people then had the same urges people have always had, without the advantage of therapy, psychiatric medications, or self-help gurus and their books or radio shows. They did have the overwhelmingly powerful influence of the church and public opinion to help them keep their behavior in check. They did not get welfare checks if they got pregnant and they didn't have any useful treatment if they got venereal diseases, so a single act of sexual congress made women risk death nine months down the road and made a man risk insanity and death years hence. Factors like these helped people behave a little bit better than we do today.

At the time, feminine virtue was esteemed. Were there coarse women, hookers, sluts? You bet. People are people. But there was an ideal of sweetness, integrity, honorable behavior, and chastity. These traits made it possible for men to respect and cherish women to an extent they rarely do today. We have lost something important when we lost the concept of feminine modesty.

[KC_Conspirator]

I disagree. The extent of what we see today was not there 30 years ago. One had to look hard to find x-rated material and hide the mags somewhere in your bedroom. Now all you have to do is turn on the cable or browse the internet.

[mugs99]

In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine

Pornograpy was mainstream in the Roaring Twenties. Modesty and censorship evolved during the depression years. I'm not taking a position here, that's just a little bit of history most Americans are unaware of today. Betty Boop was originally an 'adult' cartoon and "boop" was slang for sex.

Our modern film industry began with porn. In fact, the best film of auotomobiles in the early days is from porn flicks. The only movies of the 1908 Reo on the road are porn. It was a very popular car for motor picnics.
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[Aquinasfan]

In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.

Not in the Christian West, as far as I know. Now that we're entering a post-Christian age, at least among the cultural elites, we're reverting to pagan mores.

[Redcloak]

A good point. The nostalgic among us need to remember that in the 19th century, many American cities had brothels operating in the open. Calling them "Gentlemen's clubs" didn't make them any less sordid. And what's ultimately worse, a girl lifting her shirt in public or one lifting her skirt in private?

[Clemenza]

Those 19th Century fronteir towns were filled with hookers and gambling, to say nothing of New York as far back as the 18th century. However, what has changed is that such attitudes have moved into the more "respected" family-oriented neighborhoods. This really started in the early 70s.

[Luke21]

My gosh, have they forgotten the free love communes and dirty flower children all doped up? On television we had Charlie's Angels and the drive ins showed X rated porn that we teeners could climb onto rooftops and observe.

We are a fairly puritanical society. The current rebellion involves women sticking pins into their faces, tongues, noses, and non-public parts. To me this is stupid, dangerous, and obscene. It destroys their beauty in many cases.

But sexual it ain't.

[nickcarraway]

Your post illustrates "the fallacy of the idealized present." The idea that the present is better in all ways than the past. Of course, it's not true that everything about the past is better than the presents, we've made some improvements no one wants to see erased. But that doesn't mean somne things haven't gotten worse, as other got better.

[Diva]

In fact, the past was more sordid, grubby and immodest than anything we can now imagine.

Oh really? How so?

[Richard Kimball]

Some points in the past were, but he is speaking specifically of the United States past, and of the changes from the 1950's to the present. I knew a gynecologist who maintained an office near the University of Texas campus from the late 1950's to the mid 1990's. He told me that if the average UT Coed from today had come to his office in the 1950's, he would have assumed she was a prostitute. He stated that the average UT Coed in the 1950's was a virgin, and that the ones who weren't had usually been with one man, and that man had been their boyfriend throughout high school. He said it was very rare to treat anyone for a sexually transmitted disease in the 1950's. He was an older man, and he lamented the fact that so many of the young people today have incurable sexually transmitted diseases, and that many of these diseases will cause health problems for any children they choose to have.