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Life or Death - A Conversation With Peter Singer
National Catholic Register ^ | February 24, 2005 | ROBERT BRENNAN

Posted on 02/25/2005 11:17:31 AM PST by NYer

When talking to Prof. Peter Singer, you don’t get the impression that you’re talking to a monster. His views on what constitutes an ethical life might be diametrically opposed to 2,000 years of Catholic moral teaching and might even be construed as monstrous as seen through a God-centered view of the universe, but Peter Singer the person is intelligent, affable, complex and serious.

For years he has held one of the most prestigious positions in academia as an ethics professor at Princeton University in New Jersey.

Born in Australia, Singer has written and taught extensively on the topic of ethics. If his views frighten Catholics, we should know that he is respected elsewhere. He has been credited with helping found the modern "animal rights" movement with his book Animal Liberation.

My objective in interviewing Singer was not to engage him in some kind of ethical warfare, because I disagree so strongly with so many of his premises — as I suspect the vast majority of our readers do. But I believe it is important for us to know how people who disagree with us think and how they have come to their conclusions.

Some of what you are about to read might shock you. It might anger you. But read on with a seriousness of purpose. Singer is not merely a fringe figure. His views might not be completely mainstream, but his position in one of the most important academic institutions in the world makes it imperative that we pay attention to what he has to say.

At the end of 2004, the Groningen Academic Hospital in the Netherlands announced a new medical protocol whereby infants who are deemed to be suffering too much and/or stricken with severe disabilities may be administered lethal doses of sedatives to bring about their demise. Known as the Groningen Protocol, this new development in the world of euthanasia was the impetus for the following interview with Dr. Peter Singer, the holder of the bioethics chair at Princeton University’s Center for Human Values.

According to the Groningen Protocol, deformed or suffering newborn infants are euthanized by doctors at the direction of parents. Does this reflect a position you have been promoting?

Well, I think it’s something I’ve been suggesting can be defended in certain circumstances, so I think it’s a smaller step than many people think beyond what already happens in hospitals not only in the Netherlands but also in the United States, and, in fact, in Catholic hospitals as well.

That is, decisions are taken in hospitals to assess the condition of infants with serious problems to discuss those issues with parents and, in some cases, to withdraw life support even though the infant could live perhaps indefinitely, but on the basis of the decision that this infant’s quality of life is going to be very poor and it’s therefore not best to keep that infant alive. So I think it’s a smaller step than many people realize, when you think about what is already going on and what in fact most people, including Catholic theologians, are prepared to accept.

This protocol allows human beings to be killed by the acts of the doctor. How can you equate that with the Catholic teaching of not using heroic or extraordinary means to support life in certain situations?

I wouldn’t exactly equate it, but I would say there is not a really morally significant difference. It’s possible to distinguish these things with the use of fine arguments of what are ordinary and what are extraordinary means or measures.

But I think in substance, morally speaking, there is no significant difference in both cases.

How are they morally the same?

We have an assessment of an infant’s condition, we have consultation, we have a decision that it is better that life should not continue. Then we have steps taken that have the result that the infant dies. I think whether this is done by withdrawing extraordinary means of life support or whether this is done by active euthanasia is not really the crucial issue. The crucial issue is always the decision whether the infant’s quality of life is so poor it is better it should not live.

Do you have any thoughts as to why movements such as the Groningen Protocol have their starts in places such as the Netherlands?

Yes. Well, certainly I do think it’s better to be open about this. I think there’s an enormous amount of hypocrisy that goes on in terms of people who talk about the sanctity of human life and criticize those who support active euthanasia but are in fact supporting actions that have a similar effect. Perhaps in the United States, for political reasons or something like that, people have not talked openly about this because they don’t want to confront those who support the sanctity of life.

There’s a certain tendency, I think, to pay lip service to it, to say one thing and do another, in the United States. I think the Dutch have a lower tolerance for that. They actually are a little more blunt, a little more direct. … So it’s all up there right in front for critics to get into and attack. And what goes on in the United States and other countries is much more difficult to discover.

You separate the species part of human beings from the personhood of humans through standards such as being able to plan for the future, having an understanding of one’s environment and having a pronounced sense of self-awareness — that is why you have the position that newborn infants do not possess a complete personhood.

Yes. I’m looking for what it is that might make a morally significant distinction between beings who have the fullest right to life, if you want to put it that way, from those who don’t have such a serious right to life. I don’t think that distinction can be just whether you happen to be a member of the species Homo sapiens or not, irrespective of the characteristics or capacities that you might have. I think there’s something wrong with assuming that every member of the species Homo sapiens is somehow a more morally significant being than every member of every other species.

Obviously this is a premise on which the Catholic Church would seriously disagree with you.

If you look at the Catholic tradition, of course. If you believe every human being has an immortal soul and no non-human animal has an immortal soul you would differ from my views on that.

Are there conditions such as severe mental illness where you can see involuntary euthanasia as an ethical choice?

Well, I mean we have to make sure we’re talking about a case where there is no capacity to make an informed judgment, a considered judgment, and there is no previous statement of the person’s wishes or intentions, then clearly if someone is suffering greatly and there is no hope of recovery, I think any human person would say we shouldn’t keep this patient alive.

Do you find yourself more of a lightning rod of controversy when you give lectures?

It certainly happens that a lot of people take objections to what I say, but that’s the nature of philosophy. It goes back to Socrates; the role of the philosopher is to stimulate people to think critically about assumptions they normally take for granted. I think if I wasn’t doing that I wouldn’t be doing my job properly.

How much do you think your way of looking at things will gain ground? Does that depend on the universities?

It’s partly education, but it’s also partly that there are developments in technology that force us to be clearer about our values in some of these questions we’ve been talking about, like the sanctity of life and the treatment of newborn infants and things that we’re forced to re-examine because technology opens new possibilities to us. … For example, severely disabled infants used to just die anyway, whatever anyone did, because we didn’t have the medical means to keep them alive very long, so there was no real moral issue there.

We could all say yes, every life is precious, but tragically we can’t save these lives. Now we’ve got the means to save them and we have to ask the question, "Do we want to save them?"

Suffering, and the possible good that can be wrought from it, is a cornerstone of Catholic teaching. Would it be fair to say you reject that premise altogether?

If you go to the dentist, that dentist might hurt you, but you get a relieved pain in the long run. So yes, sometimes we have to go through a certain amount of suffering for a greater good.

But it seems to me that the Catholic view of suffering as a good in itself more or less is one they need to come up with because otherwise it’s difficult to believe that a God could have created a world with so much suffering in it. In fact, I think even with that view, it’s very difficult to believe that because there is a lot of suffering animals go through that is presumably not redemptive for them in the way that Catholics believe suffering is redemptive for humans. To me, it’s still a bit of a mystery that anyone can really believe that this world was created by a God who was both omnipotent and benevolent.

But putting that aside, I would say Catholics who hold this view of suffering in connection with the topics we’ve been talking about like euthanasia should be free to choose to suffer to the very end, but they shouldn’t impose those beliefs on others. If other people want to avail themselves to voluntary euthanasia or physician-assisted suicide or write living wills that they would like their life ended if they were no longer capable of making decisions like that about themselves, then I think it’s wrong for Catholics to stand in the way of people who don’t share their religious beliefs and who don’t share their views about the positive aspects of suffering.

 

I would like to thank Professor Singer for taking the time out of his holiday to speak to me by phone from his home in Melbourne, Australia.

As a note of clarification, it is important to understand that Professor Singer does not limit his withholding personhood from only disabled infants as the following quote from page 225 of his book Writings on an Ethical Life makes abundantly clear:

"In the modern era of liberal abortion laws, most of those not opposed to abortion have drawn a sharp line at birth. If, as I have argued, that line does not mark a sudden change in the status of the fetus, then there appears to be only two possibilities: oppose abortion or allow infanticide."

With all due respect to Professor Singer, I must answer that quote with one I found within the body of work of G.K. Chesterton:

"MAN is an exception, whatever else he is. If he is not the image of God, then he is a disease of the dust. If it is not true that a divine being fell, then we can only say that one of the animals went entirely off its head."


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Editorial

The Logic of Despair

National Catholic Register

Feb. 20-26, 2005

Why feature an extremist like Peter Singer on the front page of the Register?

Because he isn’t extreme at all.

The Princeton University ethicist has drawn a lot of attention because of his so-called cutting-edge views that dare to call into question the basic right to life of human beings who are already born. They say he dares to come to "tough" ethical conclusions about severely handicapped children and he spells out his thinking in concise logic.

Pardon us if we’re not impressed.

You don’t have to look far to see that Singer isn’t so unique after all — nor all that courageous.

Look at the last election. Presidential candidate John Kerry voted six times to keep partial-birth abortion legal and he almost won. In partial-birth abortion, a doctor induces labor, then snuffs out the life of a full-term baby while he’s being born. Former Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan called it "infanticide."

And new Sen. Barak Obama, the rising star in the Democratic Party, won in Illinois despite the fact that he had voted against the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. That’s a law that would protect the lives of children who are born accidentally during doctors’ attempts to abort them. Nurses say they are usually killed today.

These legislators don’t just argue from the safety of a classroom that some babies don’t have rights. They actually strip the rights of the babies already in our midst.

Singer is helpful, though, because he spells out the consequences of the mainstream pro-choice movement. "In the modern era of liberal abortion laws, most of those not opposed to abortion have drawn a sharp line at birth," he writes. "If, as I have argued, that line does not mark a sudden change in the status of the fetus, then there appears to be only two possibilities: Oppose abortion or allow infanticide."

But he isn’t any more "cutting edge" than Cicero or Plutarch.

Cicero (106-43 BC) said "deformed infants shall be killed" and reported, "We drown children who at birth are weakly and abnormal."

Plutarch (ca. AD 46-120) wrote about how common infanticide was among the Carthaginians, pointing out that infants were killed "as if they were so many lambs or young birds; meanwhile the mother stood by without a tear or moan." Singer isn’t cutting-edge if you look at modern China, either. Their draconian one-child-per-family policy means that many children are aborted, or born and left abandoned to either die or be raised in orphanages. It also means that the country is disproportionately male. Being female in China is often a severe enough "handicap" to get you killed.

In a way, Singer isn’t any more cutting-edge in his thinking than women like the mother who was recently arrested in Denver for throwing her newborn baby into a dumpster.

Singer’s high-minded rhetoric about severely handicapped children might sound new, but it has all the marks of the same despairing philosophy that has appeared again and again throughout history.

Faced with children who will either suffer or cause others to suffer, our human nature very naturally loses hope. We can’t see beyond the immediate, physical circumstances. Without any firmly rooted principle of the dignity of every human life, it doesn’t take a doctorate for us to become child-killers.

The real cutting edge ethical code is the one that dares to say that every human being — no matter how weak or how ugly — has a right to life.

This morality has always been revolutionary. It was when the Didache, an early Christian document, was written between 85 and 110. Its teaching that "You shall not commit infanticide" and "You shall not kill a child by abortion" only gradually took hold as Christianity did. The protection of infants deepened and saw its full flowering in the laws of Europe alongside the rest of the achievements of Western Civilization.

It wasn’t until the 20th century that Europe began to embrace death again, with the rise of pagan fascists and atheist communists who feared that the weak would hamper the ascent of the strong.

Christianity’s core message is very different. It’s the same as Pope John Paul II’s favorite exhortation: "Be not afraid." Christians believe that God so loved us that he has spent several millennia trying to win our love — even suffering and dying in the fervor of his courtship. With such a God looking after us, why should we fear? And why should we judge which of us is worthier of God’s gifts than any other?

In a world marred by death, pain and suffering, infanticide is just more of the same old hopelessness. Hope is what’s radical and cutting edge. And it’s our duty to spread this Good News with the same logic and intensity as the philosophers of despair.

1 posted on 02/25/2005 11:17:32 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Page One Story

Hate the Song, Love the Singer

A Catholic Response to Peter Singer’s Position

 

by REV. THOMAS D. WILLIAMS, LC

Many of the ethical questions raised by Peter Singer in his Register interview have been addressed by the Church. The Register asked Rev. Thomas D. Williams, LC, an American moral theologian and dean of the Theology School at Rome’s Regina Apostolorum pontifical university, for his comments.

I think it is evident to anyone with even a rudimentary familiarity with Catholic moral teaching that Peter Singer’s ethical stance on nearly all contemporary life issues stands in direct opposition to the Catholic position. But since Singer has chosen to downplay those differences, I think it is important to highlight just how far removed his thought is from a Christian, and indeed classical understanding of human life, its inherent dignity and the ethical consequences stemming from this dignity.

I am sure that Register correspondent Robert Brennan is right in asserting that Peter Singer is "no monster." Yet civil people can come up with monstrous ideas, and even rational-sounding ideas can lead to monstrous consequences when carried out to their logical conclusion — just as Karl Marx led to Stalin and Friederich Nietzsche led to Hitler.

To Kill or Let Die

The first question to be addressed is Singer’s contention regarding the moral equivalence of active euthanasia and the discontinuance of extraordinary means of life support, permitted by Catholic morality.

Singer sums up the moral reasoning going on in both cases as an assessment of an infant’s condition leading to "a decision that it is better that life should not continue." He introduces the category of "quality of life" as the determining factor in the decision.

Yet from a Catholic perspective, it is never the case that one human being will look at another and decide: "It is better for you not to live."

Catholics understand human life is always good in itself, to be respected and defended. One thing is to be unable to prevent the death of another human being except by extraordinary means (which would make the person suffer uselessly) and to choose to forgo those means; another thing altogether is to decide that another human being should die and actively bring about his death. It is true that the end result (death) might sometimes be the same, but the human choices involved are radically different. Something akin to helplessly witnessing your child get struck by an automobile versus intentionally running her down.

Legal provisions for the killing of sick infants seriously compromise the common good and create a climate where the good of human life is put up for grabs. In this regard, the Netherlands certainly does not provide a model of a humane society. Despite idealistic talk of looking out for the best interests of the child, decisions to terminate life often stem from concerns with the difficulties and costs of caring for such a child. Why else would so many children diagnosed with Down syndrome be aborted, since these children live happy, fulfilled lives? On the other end of the spectrum, how else can we explain the migration of so many senior citizens from the Netherlands across the border to Germany to avoid being killed if they go to the hospital?

 

What Makes Us Human

As serious as this is, a more pernicious problem emerges from Singer’s reasoning. The rejection of the universal and equal dignity of human beings in favor of distinctions between one human being’s worth and another’s bears the seed of the greatest abominations. Slavery, racism, genocide and eugenics all stem from the same premise that some human beings are inferior to others and don’t deserve the same protection under the law. The criteria for evaluating "worth" might vary from case to case, but the underlying principle remains the same.

If human dignity and the basic rights that flow from it is not rooted in a universal human nature, but rather in the possession or exercise of certain "qualities," then in reality dignity (and rights) vary from person to person, according to intelligence, athletic ability, health, degree of self-awareness, etc. Thus, smarter people are not only smarter but superior and worthy of better treatment than the less intelligent. The distinctions Singer is willing to make between those who have a full right to life and those who "don’t have such a serious right to life" is downright frightening.

If "whether you happen to be a member of the species Homo sapiens or not" is irrelevant, I can only wonder why Singer thinks he should be treated differently from his dog. True, his dog might not be as intelligent, but nor does it make dangerous proposals that, if applied, would seriously jeopardize social harmony. The dog’s "utility" to the human community might be merely neutral, while his master’s could well be negative. If every human being needs to earn and maintain his right to life by proving the moral relevance of his particular existence, we have indeed reached moral anarchy and the tyranny of the strong over the weak.

 

Human Suffering

A final bone of contention concerns Singer’s understanding of human suffering. Since utilitarians believe that pain is the only real evil and pleasure the only real good, once suffering and pain become intense and there is no hope of betterment (no hope that at the end of pain there should be a greater pleasure), one should eliminate pain by eliminating life.

Singer believes that it is a question of "credo": If you are a believer, you will defend the sanctity of life. If you are a non-believer, you will be a utilitarian. Yet utilitarianism is unacceptable, even for a non-Christian, since it fundamentally misunderstands human good.

The only value animals are able to perceive is the pleasurable and the painful, and thus they flee pain and seek pleasure. Human beings, on the contrary, are able to discern values rationally; they perceive many values animals do not perceive: aesthetic values, intellectual values, moral values, religious values. … From here, man can and must establish an objective hierarchy of values. For example, the value of truth-telling ("do not tell lies") is a higher value than that of pleasure or pain ("even if you lose certain advantages or pleasures that you could obtain by a little lie").

Behind a smokescreen of apparent rationality, Singer’s proposals do not lead to moral progress but to the dehumanization of society. They couldn’t be further from the Christian understanding of the basic good of human life and the corresponding moral responsibility to uphold and defend it.

Catholic Ping - Come home for Easter and experience God’s merciful love. Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

American Catholic - Lent Feature

2 posted on 02/25/2005 11:19:54 AM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: Kolokotronis; MarMema; kosta50; Agrarian; jveritas

Orthodox ping!


3 posted on 02/25/2005 11:21:06 AM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: cpforlife.org; Mr. Silverback; Coleus

Know your enemy!


4 posted on 02/25/2005 11:21:38 AM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: NYer

BUMP


5 posted on 02/25/2005 11:21:43 AM PST by nickcarraway
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To: NYer

"Some of what you are about to read might shock you. It might anger you. But read on with a seriousness of purpose. Singer is not merely a fringe figure. His views might not be completely mainstream, but his position in one of the most important academic institutions in the world makes it imperative that we pay attention to what he has to say."

This is precisely the problem with Peter Singer


6 posted on 02/25/2005 11:22:57 AM PST by Cosmo (Now accepting donations)
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To: NYer
I need to go get some duct-tape real quick before my head explodes....

I dealt with Peter Singer's philosophy for four years in college and it was four years too many.
7 posted on 02/25/2005 11:23:02 AM PST by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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To: NYer

And defeat your enemy.


8 posted on 02/25/2005 11:23:18 AM PST by jveritas
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To: NYer

I was in a philosophy class 14 years ago at CU (Yes, where Ward Churchill is wreaking havoc), and had to read "Practical Ethics" by this Aussie clown. He hasn't modified his radical philosophy of death and indignity towards the helpless.

His is a life truly not worth living.


9 posted on 02/25/2005 11:25:28 AM PST by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: NYer
"In the modern era of liberal abortion laws, most of those not opposed to abortion have drawn a sharp line at birth. If, as I have argued, that line does not mark a sudden change in the status of the fetus, then there appears to be only two possibilities: oppose abortion or allow infanticide."

In this case, Dr. Singer (May God strike him a mighty blow with the grace of conversion and repentance!) is exactly right. With the scientific knowledge we know have regarding the nature of an unborn child, there is no middle ground.

10 posted on 02/25/2005 11:25:47 AM PST by Tax-chick (Donate to FRIENDS OF SCOUTING and ruin a liberal's day!)
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To: NYer
Of course you know his ideas are nothing new. They've been with us since recorded history.

***Pleased to meet you, won't you guess my name?***

11 posted on 02/25/2005 11:30:05 AM PST by martian_22 (Who tells you what you are?)
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To: NYer
When talking to Prof. Peter Singer, you don’t get the impression that you’re talking to a monster.

Even though that describes him precisely.
12 posted on 02/25/2005 11:38:47 AM PST by farmer18th
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To: NYer

My daughter takes a required class at her school--Global Justice. The course is as bad as you think it might be. A requirement of the course is to listen to Peter Singer. He showed up in person last year; students, many of them, did not receive him well. This year, it was a taped interview. Many of the students were outraged, but their opinions were really not wanted.


13 posted on 02/25/2005 11:39:48 AM PST by twigs
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To: NYer

although the article describes Singer's views as not mainstream, among academics, his views are the norm. I'm in a PhD program in philosophy and nearly every professor that does ethics here agrees with Singer. However, since they have not chosen to pursue the "public intellectual" path Singer has, no one pays attention to them and no controversy is generated when they teach a class or give a talk. Sadly, many of the grad students (ie future professors) agree with Singer too.

As a whole, I see our society going down the road of Singer's views. Witness the difficulty of passing Born Alive bills in blue states like Illinois, the light sentences given for infanticide, and the whole Terri Schiavo case.


14 posted on 02/25/2005 11:48:59 AM PST by sassbox
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To: Tax-chick; sandyeggo; Coleus; Convert from ECUSA; TattooedUSAFConservative; Pyro7480
If, as I have argued, that line does not mark a sudden change in the status of the fetus, then there appears to be only two possibilities: oppose abortion or allow infanticide.

*With the scientific knowledge we know have regarding the nature of an unborn child, there is no middle ground.*

Here is a true story that clarifies the insanity of Abortion and Euthanasia.

Recently a baby was born with heart defects. The parents were advised of this prior to birth and the doctor told the parents to abort him. They called a Maronite Catholic priest friend, who told them to have the baby. He said it was better that the baby be baptized into the Church and called home by God Himself, than to be killed in his mother's womb. The parents accepted the priest's advice, and named him Charbel, in hopes of a miracle from his patron saint. He was baptized immediately following birth and pronounced to be in a dangerous state of health.

Many prayer requests went out for Baby Charbel. Today, we learned that Charbel was born without the proper construction of a heart - the valves and ventricles, and that is why his situation was so dire. He has since had a successful operation wherein they basically constructed a working heart out of almost nothing almost, and is now breathing on his own. The doctors say his prognosis is very good.

Moral of the story: Where there is life, there is hope! When we place our trust in God, He will not hear our prayers.


Saint Charbel Mahklouf

15 posted on 02/25/2005 12:04:30 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: martian_22
***Pleased to meet you, won't you guess my name?***

Correct answer.

16 posted on 02/25/2005 12:05:09 PM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: NYer
Great story!

He said it was better that the baby be baptized into the Church and called home by God Himself, than to be killed in his mother's womb.

This advice should be given to every parent expecting a handicapped child. Even if the prenatal diagnoses were always correct, which they are not, life is God's to give or take.

It's gotten so I cringe every time someone brings up "quality of life" or "dignity" as an issue. It seems they equate "quality" with "productivity" and "dignity" with "autonomy." Those criteria applied to kill an elderly or disabled person are also sufficient to kill a baby: he's neither productive nor autonomous, and there's no guarantee he ever will be.

17 posted on 02/25/2005 12:15:07 PM PST by Tax-chick (Donate to FRIENDS OF SCOUTING and ruin a liberal's day!)
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To: little jeremiah

Singer alert.


18 posted on 02/25/2005 1:58:48 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (''Go though life with a Bible in one hand and a Newspaper in the other" -- Billy Graham)
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To: NYer

Peter Singer is the public face of the deep ecologist agenda. Negative population growth via ignoring Africa's genocides and health issues, euthanasia, abortion, banning DDT, encouraging homosexuality, pornography and making child bearing more costly, encouraging people to not have children by promoting la dulce vida, and even some things that freepers would agree with like their global campaign to raise the marriage age are all part of the deep ecologist agenda.


19 posted on 02/25/2005 2:39:18 PM PST by Odyssey-x
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis; MarMema; Agrarian; jveritas
The only value animals are able to perceive is the pleasurable and the painful, and thus they flee pain and seek pleasure

Good post NYer. I quoted the Catholic Response above to remind everyone that the same holds for infants. Sigmund Freud summed it up as the "Pleasure Principle" or Id, our biological animal nature that is selfish, egocentric. +Augustine recognized that too. By our nature, we are unable to turn to God until we reach the age of reason. This means that our soul by itself is suppressed by our nature and that if we are ever to become Christ-like we must work to defeat our nature. The "feels-good, feels-bad" underlying structure to our existence is why conditioning work on animals as well as humans. Rewards and punishment modify behavior -- and thinking.

There is also the issue of mercy and compassion. Is letting a human being suffer merciful and compassionate? May I remind you that Jesus helped end a woman's torment on a Sabbath and was chastised by the Pharisees for breaking the God's Commandment. What Jesus replied was is essence that doing a compassionate thing is not breaking God's Commandment but not doing it is! Mercy before judgment.

We do believe that those who suffer are blessed. We even elevate those who suffer for the faith to sainthood even if they are not all that "saintly" otherwise. But letting someone suffer who cannot help himself and believing we are doing him a "favor" has a flavor of Gnosticism in it!

Let me make myself clear: I am not in favor of euthanasia if for no other reason than for the fact that human nature is corrupt and any such practice would lead to abuse and ever-greater sin and that allowing is opens a Pandora's box. My opposition is not that it is wrong per say to easy someone's suffering, but that human nature corrupts that which is good.

Sensless suffering is just that -- sensless. For if suffering were what we worship, we would make sure we suffer all the time. Just refuse anesthesia next time you go to a dentist. Or, per haps your dentist should simply not use anesthesia so you can suffer more!

We recognize that those who suffer are blessed, but we should not aid in sensless suffering. The idolatry of suffering is not what our Lord taught. He suffered for us because He chose to. Letting any living creature suffer is unmerciful and cruel.

20 posted on 02/25/2005 4:57:39 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: PhilDragoo

ping, try this.


21 posted on 02/25/2005 5:43:38 PM PST by MarMema ("America may have won the battles, but the Nazis won the war." Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall)
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To: martian_22
Of course you know his ideas are nothing new. They've been with us since recorded history. ***Pleased to meet you, won't you guess my name?***

Thank you so much, George Soros, forerunner to the antichrist.

22 posted on 02/25/2005 5:46:14 PM PST by MarMema ("America may have won the battles, but the Nazis won the war." Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall)
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To: Ohioan from Florida

Worth a ping, I believe.


23 posted on 02/25/2005 5:48:01 PM PST by MarMema ("America may have won the battles, but the Nazis won the war." Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis
We recognize that those who suffer are blessed, but we should not aid in sensless suffering. The idolatry of suffering is not what our Lord taught. He suffered for us because He chose to. Letting any living creature suffer is unmerciful and cruel.

Glad you enjoyed this post!

A question, though, in keeping with the above comment. Where do you stand on those who choose to suffer, in order to have a share in the suffering of Christ? In other words, how does your comment sit with those individuals who go so far as to ask our Lord for pain and suffering, for precisely the purpose of sharing in His Passion?

24 posted on 02/25/2005 5:57:38 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: MarMema; floriduh voter; phenn; cyn; FreepinforTerri; kimmie7; Pegita; windchime; tutstar; ...

Terri ping! If anyone would like to be added to or removed from my Terri ping list, please let me know by FReepmail!


25 posted on 02/25/2005 6:40:16 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: MarMema
Excellent explication of Singer v. Life.

We await the 800 number and link to the online petition whereby we may vote for Singer's postnatal abortion.

It becomes soon apparent with Singer that there is no absolute vis-a-vis "right to life"; that with him (and his Morlockians) it is discretionary, whim, "because I say so".

This arbitrary use of homicide is the mark of the monster, viz. Hitler.

Pshaw to all his pretense as inheritor of Socrates' tradition; his is the philosophy of the Dictator of the High Chair.

Because I say so.

Let him put his body where his mouth is.

We shall take a vote on Whether Singer.

Professor, the results are in; here is your hemlock. Salud.

27 posted on 02/25/2005 7:06:30 PM PST by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: NYer; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


28 posted on 02/25/2005 8:13:32 PM PST by Coleus (Brooke Shields aborted how many children? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1178497/posts)
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To: DirtyHarryY2K

Thanks - (gack!). Ping to self for later pingout!


29 posted on 02/25/2005 8:15:01 PM PST by little jeremiah (Resisting evil is our duty or we are as responsible as those promoting it.)
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To: Coleus

Thanks for the ping, but I will not even read this. I have already heard Singers ideas about animals and babies. He is one sick puppy!


30 posted on 02/25/2005 8:22:57 PM PST by tuckrdout (Nothin is fool proof to a sufficiently talented fool.)
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To: NYer

Pray for Peter Singer and all those who are influenced by him and who, because they "think" this and "feel" that, kill our brothers and sisters, our children.


Dualism is laughable. If personhood is an aquired characteristic of a member of our species, then individual preferences, arbitrary judgement and the powers that make the difference between the life and death of each of us. We have historical and current examples that whenever the definition of human being is limited to less than all members of the species, the infringement of the right to life of more and more results. We end up with holocaust, with the Tuskeegee experiments and deaths of children in hospitals. The Netherlands proves that, literally, no one is safe once the State abandons its duty to protect life.


31 posted on 02/25/2005 9:26:10 PM PST by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: NYer

INTREP - L'Chaim


32 posted on 02/25/2005 9:56:58 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America is happening)
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis
Where do you stand on those who choose to suffer, in order to have a share in the suffering of Christ?

The question is does God want us to suffer? The Bible says that God is "kind to the unthankful and the evil" (Luke 6:35)and not just to the good and greatly. Love does not wish evil on enyone. Yet, God allows "pedagogical punishments" (Kalomiros, the River of Fire) as means of correction in this life (permitting change in a changing world). For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom 5:20)

Does that means that we we should cause someone to suffer? Does that mean that we should cause suffering on us? Is self-violence any less of a sin then violence against someone else? Did our Lord even ask us to suffer or let suffer?

Certainly His suffering for us is a different story. His suffering was salvific. He did it because He could save the world.

If suffering were what the Lord wants, then we should make everyone suffer, including ourselves? But our bodies and lives are not ours to abuse and destroy; for we have no right to keep either, but are required to return the body and the soul. Those who inflict self-suffering and self-mutilation are not pleasing God.

So, while we may look with greater acceptance on those who choose to suffer, as far as the Christian Heart goes causing unnecessary suffering to those who can't help themselves is cruel and unmerciful.

33 posted on 02/26/2005 7:12:51 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: hocndoc

I am so glad to see you here.


34 posted on 02/26/2005 7:13:33 AM PST by MarMema ("America may have won the battles, but the Nazis won the war." Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall)
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To: PhilDragoo

Given an honorary chair at Princeton and now teaches ethics, I believe. To lots of pre-med students, no doubt.


35 posted on 02/26/2005 7:15:24 AM PST by MarMema ("America may have won the battles, but the Nazis won the war." Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall)
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To: kosta50
greatly=grateful (the spellchecker does some funny things)
36 posted on 02/26/2005 7:16:53 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; NYer

In addition to kosta's remarks, we ought also to understand that as a general proposition, Orthodoxy looks more to the joy and glory of the Resurrection than to the Passion. I don't know of any Orthodox writer who proclaims some value in suffering "as Christ suffered", though there are saints who carry the appellation "passion bearer" so undoubtedly there must be some value in what NYer proposes. That said, the Orthodox Fathers talk about "dying to the self" in order to advance in theosis. Part of the process is self-denial, but this, while perhaps a type of suffering, is always accompanied by intense prayer and is merely a difficult means to an end and not an end in itself.


37 posted on 02/26/2005 8:07:34 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; Pyro7480; sandyeggo; jveritas; Maximilian
Love does not wish evil on enyone

Suffering = evil? I understand your argument; it makes perfect sense. However, there are many catholic saints who specifically asked our Lord for a share in His suffering, while on earth. One that comes to mind is


Saint Rafqa

She was drawn to religious life and entered the Convent of Our Lady of Deliverance in Bikfaya in 1860.

On the first Sunday of October 1885, she entered the monastery church and began to pray, asking Jesus to permit her to experience some of the suffering He endured during His passion. Her prayer was immediately answered. Unbearable pains began in her head and moved to her eyes.

Her superior insisted that she undergo medical treatment. After all local attempts to cure her had failed, she was sent to Beirut for treatment. Passing by St. John-Mark's Church in Byblos, her companions learned that an American doctor was traveling in the area. Contacted, he agreed to perform surgery on the afflicted eye. St. Rafqa refused anesthesia. In the course of the surgery, her eye became completely detached. Within a short time, the disease struck the left eye.

For the next 12 years she continued to experience intense pain in her head. Throughout this period, as before, she remained patient and uncomplaining, praying in thanksgiving for the gift of sharing in Jesus' suffering.

When the Lebanese Maronite Order decided to build the monastery of St. Joseph al Dahr in Jrabta, Batroun, in 1897, six nuns, led by Mother Ursula Doumit, were sent to the new monastery. Rafqa was among them.

In 1899, she lost the sight in her left eye. With this a new stage of her suffering began, intensified by the dislocation of her clavicle and her right hip and leg. Her vertebrae were visible through her skin.

Her face was spared and remained shining to the end. Her hands stayed intact; and she used them to knit socks and make clothing. She thanked God for the use of her hands while also thanking Him for permitting her a share in His Son's suffering.

Preparing for death, she called upon the Mother of God and St. Joseph. Finally, on March 23, 1914, after a life of prayer and service, and years of unbearable pain, she rested in peace. She was buried in the monastery cemetery.

On July 10, 1927, her body was transferred to a shrine in the corner of the monastery chapel. The case for her beatification was introduced on December 23, 1925, and canonical investigation of her life began on May 16, 1926.

Pope John Paul II declared her: Venerable on February 11, 1982; Beatified on November 17, 1985; a role model in the adoration of the Eucharist during the Jubilee Year 2000. She was canonized on Jun 10, 2001..

St Rafqa was devoted to the  SHOULDER WOUND OF JESUS
(the 6th Wound)



St. Rafqa's Tomb
St. Joseph's Monastery, Jrabta, Batroun

38 posted on 02/26/2005 8:27:41 AM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: NYer

I think your story of St. Rafqa demonstrates one of the persistent differences between Orthodox Christian theology and that of the Latin theology influenced Churches.


39 posted on 02/26/2005 8:32:20 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama; A2J; Agitate; Alouette; Annie03; aposiopetic; attagirl; axel f; Balto_Boy; ...
If the monsters all looked like monsters, Satan would never get any work done...

ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

40 posted on 02/26/2005 1:41:04 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Chrome wheeled, fuel injected and steppin' out over the line)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer
In addition to kosta's remarks, we ought also to understand that as a general proposition, Orthodoxy looks more to the joy and glory of the Resurrection than to the Passion

That is 100% accurate! Along with mercy and compassion.

41 posted on 02/26/2005 3:17:58 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer; kosta50; Kolokotronis; Pyro7480; sandyeggo; jveritas; Maximilian
You are not only asking me to judge, but to judge a saint!

Love does not refuse; Love does not reject. If Saint Rafqa asked God from her heart to permit her to suffer so she can share in the suffering of Jesus, I am not surprized that her wish was answered.

God is impassionate. Our sufferings neither please nor displease Him.

I am not sure I understand why she even underwent treatment if she knew that her ailmenti was due to her wish. But that is not mine to answer.

However, this is a completely different topic. The topic of the posted article is about suffeirng infants and whether we should let them suffer. Since they can't make that decision, we as Christians must guide ourselves by mercy and compassion.

God is our Comforter. If we try to be in His image, we should provide comfort, not pain. Senlsless suffering of an infant is not pedagogical, for it will neither change anything for the better, nor did the infant do anything to warrant it.

42 posted on 02/26/2005 3:45:18 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer
I had this debate years ago with several people. Their concern was not normal vs. extraordinary means, it was for them quality of life. And in fact I debated this with someone this very day.

Essentially then in their minds if a person doesn't pass the "quality of life standard," it is morally justifiable to euthanize them whether or not they are on life support that is extraordinary or none at all.

One can see this reflected in the arguments of ordinary people today.

Interesting post. Thank you.

43 posted on 02/26/2005 4:05:52 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The call you make may be the one that saves Terri's life!!!!!!)
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To: TAdams8591
Yes, this is a very interesting argument. Sadly, today, were one to abort the unborn puppies of a pregnant dog, the courts would more than likely rule the action as animal cruelty.

You read the initial thread but missed my Post #15

44 posted on 02/26/2005 5:05:34 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; sandyeggo; maximillian; Pyro7480; TattooedUSAFConservative; sitetest
You are not only asking me to judge, but to judge a saint!

Not really. God is that judge.

I was addressing the concept you raised of suffering as evil. Kolokotronis made an astute observation insofar as St. Rafqa, noting the Latin 'influence' on the Maronite Church, which he presumes led to and justified Rafqa's personal mortification.

Rafqa is one of many catholic saints who sincerely requested a share in Christ's Passion through personal suffering. There are far too many for me to recall their names, much less the justifications submitted for this purpose. The Church ensures that these were not self-inflicted but requested. I do recall the story of one saint (name eludes me) who asked our Lord for personal suffering to repay the sins of her father (or was it her step father?). She was not only granted this request, but was rewarded with the gratification of knowing that her suffering had released him from Purgatory.

Aha! Here is the distinct difference that separates us! Purgatory. Perhaps this is why the Orthodox Churches shy away from purgative suffering?

As to some of the other Maronite saints, my personal favorite is St. Charbel. True story ... several weeks ago, a family in Cleveland OH were told by their OB/GYN that the child the wife was carrying had severe cardiac defects and they advised her to abort the child. Before acting on their advice, she telephoned a Maronite priest in CA. He counseled the couple that it would be better to give birth to the child, have it baptized into the Church and allow God to choose the proper moment to bring it home than to kill it in the womb.

They heeded the advice of the Maronite priest. The wife delivered a boy and had it baptized in the hospital, immediately after birth. They named the child, Charbel, and asked for this saint's intervention in saving the life of their son. Word went out to the Maronite communities and prayers were requested for this baby boy.

The child was immediately put on life support and doctors expected that he would not survive for long. Now, two weeks later, we are advised that a medical team was assembled to perform surgery on Baby Charbel. Missing valves and ventricles were constructed from what little his heart had to offer.

The operation was declared a success and Baby Charbel is now off of life support, breathing on his own and the doctors have given him a good prognosis.

Surely, all of this 'suffering' is meritorious. Please remember Baby Charbel in your prayers. He is not out of the woods just yet but his life is a far cry from an abortion.

Father of Truth

(The Last Prayer of Saint Charbel before he died)

 

Father of truth,

Here is your Son,

The sacrifice in which you are well pleased.

Accept him for he died for me.

So through him I shall be pardoned.

Here is the offering.

Take it from my hands

And so I shall be reconciled with you.

Remember not the sins that I have committed

In front of your Majesty.

Here is the blood which flowered on Golgotha

For my salvation and prays for me.

Out of consideration for this,

Accept my supplication.

I have committed many sins

But your mercy is great.

If you put them in the balance,

Your goodness will have more weight

Than the most mighty mountains.

Look not upon my sins,

But rather on what is offered for them,

For the offering and the sacrifice

Are even greater than the offences.

Because I have sinned,

Your beloved bore the nails and the spear.

His sufferings are enough to satisfy you.

By them I shall live.

Glory be to the Father who sent His Son for us.

Adoration be to the Son who has freed us and ensured our salvation.

Blessed be he who by his love has given life to all.

To him be the glory.

 

from the Maronite Liturgy.

45 posted on 02/26/2005 5:43:44 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: NYer; kosta50
"Aha! Here is the distinct difference that separates us! Purgatory. Perhaps this is why the Orthodox Churches shy away from purgative suffering?"

Well, while the concept of purgatory does separate us, Kosta was right. Orthodox writers hold that God's love shines on all, the good and the evil. He does not desire suffering to happen to anyone. A Fallen World creates suffering and disaster. It is sometimes posited that God allows, as Kosta points out, pedagogical suffering, but that is not what you describe St. Rafqa as undergoing I don't think. And in any event, pedagogical suffering is not purgative suffering. It is also said that God might allow a disaster to occur to prevent the further spread of an evil. But even this is love and not a punishment.

At base, the desire to "share in the Passion of Christ" is foreign to Orthodoxy. I was reminded today of the life of St. Polycarp whose feast we call celebrated this week. In the full story of his life it is related that during the persecutions of the Christians, various Christians were seized with a great desire for martyrdom, to suffer death for the Faith. They gathered together and went to the arena or wherever it was the executions were taking place and announced they wished to suffer, Instead they found themselves apostatizing by worshiping the Emperor. This didn't happen because they chickened out at the last moment but because, as the biographer points out, it is wrong in God's eyes to seek out suffering and death which amounts to a rejection of God's Love. Let me add, however, that our reaction to the pain and suffering which in life will find us without any effort on our part, can be a great help or hindrance to our theosis.

In my own opinion, I think the Western embrace of ideas like seeking to experience the Passion and Sufferings of Christ stem from the West's view of mankind after the Fall and the vaguely pagan notion that God demands some sort of tribute from each of us for the forgiveness of our sins.
46 posted on 02/26/2005 6:10:31 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis
Not really. God is that judge

God is Love and Love can only give blessings. To those who hate Him, His blessings are poison. To those who love Him, His blessings are life.

God is not the author of hell. Those who go to hell are not there because of God.

47 posted on 02/26/2005 9:12:11 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer
Wonderfully worded. I have nothing to add to your post, Kolo. I just want to offer a couple of ideas of what suffering accomplishes: suffering allows us to forgive those who persecute us, or to be able to say "Thy Will be done!" with peace; it allows us to foresake the earthly and embrace the heavenly; it allows us to pray for those who trouble us; it allows us to be Christ-like!

The idea that suffering is what God demands from us in order to "repay" Him our debts for sin, that is a portrait of an angry and insulted God, which is alien to Eastern Christianity.

48 posted on 02/26/2005 9:25:19 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer

If Singer were just another kook getting his few minutes of fame from the media, he would be soon ignored...and gone back to the land down under.

Unfortunately, his views are honored and transmitted to future generations of gullible and self hating.


49 posted on 02/27/2005 12:04:12 PM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: NYer
Unfortunately, Singer is typical of the liberal professors teaching today in most of our institutions of "higher learning." The interview was a pretty shocking example of where moral relativism and secularism can lead the "intellectual" mind.

Conservatives have made some headway into the liberal media domination. K-12 education has the handicaps of being a government monopoly and union run. Something must be done to right the leftist imbalance at our universities and the monopoly in K-12 education. We can not continue to allow liberal education institutions to mold the political and moral ethics of our citizens.

50 posted on 02/28/2005 3:41:19 AM PST by Got a right to Life? . . Huh? (Abortion has kills more Americans every year than we have lost in all U.S. wars combined!)
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