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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; sandyeggo; maximillian; Pyro7480; TattooedUSAFConservative; sitetest
You are not only asking me to judge, but to judge a saint!

Not really. God is that judge.

I was addressing the concept you raised of suffering as evil. Kolokotronis made an astute observation insofar as St. Rafqa, noting the Latin 'influence' on the Maronite Church, which he presumes led to and justified Rafqa's personal mortification.

Rafqa is one of many catholic saints who sincerely requested a share in Christ's Passion through personal suffering. There are far too many for me to recall their names, much less the justifications submitted for this purpose. The Church ensures that these were not self-inflicted but requested. I do recall the story of one saint (name eludes me) who asked our Lord for personal suffering to repay the sins of her father (or was it her step father?). She was not only granted this request, but was rewarded with the gratification of knowing that her suffering had released him from Purgatory.

Aha! Here is the distinct difference that separates us! Purgatory. Perhaps this is why the Orthodox Churches shy away from purgative suffering?

As to some of the other Maronite saints, my personal favorite is St. Charbel. True story ... several weeks ago, a family in Cleveland OH were told by their OB/GYN that the child the wife was carrying had severe cardiac defects and they advised her to abort the child. Before acting on their advice, she telephoned a Maronite priest in CA. He counseled the couple that it would be better to give birth to the child, have it baptized into the Church and allow God to choose the proper moment to bring it home than to kill it in the womb.

They heeded the advice of the Maronite priest. The wife delivered a boy and had it baptized in the hospital, immediately after birth. They named the child, Charbel, and asked for this saint's intervention in saving the life of their son. Word went out to the Maronite communities and prayers were requested for this baby boy.

The child was immediately put on life support and doctors expected that he would not survive for long. Now, two weeks later, we are advised that a medical team was assembled to perform surgery on Baby Charbel. Missing valves and ventricles were constructed from what little his heart had to offer.

The operation was declared a success and Baby Charbel is now off of life support, breathing on his own and the doctors have given him a good prognosis.

Surely, all of this 'suffering' is meritorious. Please remember Baby Charbel in your prayers. He is not out of the woods just yet but his life is a far cry from an abortion.

Father of Truth

(The Last Prayer of Saint Charbel before he died)

 

Father of truth,

Here is your Son,

The sacrifice in which you are well pleased.

Accept him for he died for me.

So through him I shall be pardoned.

Here is the offering.

Take it from my hands

And so I shall be reconciled with you.

Remember not the sins that I have committed

In front of your Majesty.

Here is the blood which flowered on Golgotha

For my salvation and prays for me.

Out of consideration for this,

Accept my supplication.

I have committed many sins

But your mercy is great.

If you put them in the balance,

Your goodness will have more weight

Than the most mighty mountains.

Look not upon my sins,

But rather on what is offered for them,

For the offering and the sacrifice

Are even greater than the offences.

Because I have sinned,

Your beloved bore the nails and the spear.

His sufferings are enough to satisfy you.

By them I shall live.

Glory be to the Father who sent His Son for us.

Adoration be to the Son who has freed us and ensured our salvation.

Blessed be he who by his love has given life to all.

To him be the glory.

 

from the Maronite Liturgy.

45 posted on 02/26/2005 5:43:44 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: NYer; kosta50
"Aha! Here is the distinct difference that separates us! Purgatory. Perhaps this is why the Orthodox Churches shy away from purgative suffering?"

Well, while the concept of purgatory does separate us, Kosta was right. Orthodox writers hold that God's love shines on all, the good and the evil. He does not desire suffering to happen to anyone. A Fallen World creates suffering and disaster. It is sometimes posited that God allows, as Kosta points out, pedagogical suffering, but that is not what you describe St. Rafqa as undergoing I don't think. And in any event, pedagogical suffering is not purgative suffering. It is also said that God might allow a disaster to occur to prevent the further spread of an evil. But even this is love and not a punishment.

At base, the desire to "share in the Passion of Christ" is foreign to Orthodoxy. I was reminded today of the life of St. Polycarp whose feast we call celebrated this week. In the full story of his life it is related that during the persecutions of the Christians, various Christians were seized with a great desire for martyrdom, to suffer death for the Faith. They gathered together and went to the arena or wherever it was the executions were taking place and announced they wished to suffer, Instead they found themselves apostatizing by worshiping the Emperor. This didn't happen because they chickened out at the last moment but because, as the biographer points out, it is wrong in God's eyes to seek out suffering and death which amounts to a rejection of God's Love. Let me add, however, that our reaction to the pain and suffering which in life will find us without any effort on our part, can be a great help or hindrance to our theosis.

In my own opinion, I think the Western embrace of ideas like seeking to experience the Passion and Sufferings of Christ stem from the West's view of mankind after the Fall and the vaguely pagan notion that God demands some sort of tribute from each of us for the forgiveness of our sins.
46 posted on 02/26/2005 6:10:31 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis
Not really. God is that judge

God is Love and Love can only give blessings. To those who hate Him, His blessings are poison. To those who love Him, His blessings are life.

God is not the author of hell. Those who go to hell are not there because of God.

47 posted on 02/26/2005 9:12:11 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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