A Solomonic decision;judges could have kept the Terri Schiavo case from becoming so complex

WORLD MAGAZINE.COM ^ | MARCH 29, 2005 | JOEL BELZ

[exDemMom]

Does that mean that all "PVS" patients who are correctly diagnosed and have a valid bad prognosis should be killed?

I think that Felos and Greer's goal in this case is to set exactly this precedent. Once the precedent is enshrined in law, I'm afraid that even a clearly stated "Give me medical treatment, I don't want to be killed" living will have no legal weight (since such a document would only be valid for a person who has legal rights). There are also tens of thousands of retarded people out there whose conditions are comparable to or worse than Terri's--I think it's only a matter of time before we see lawsuits to kill them on the basis that they are not, and have never been, human.

I think the diagnosis "PVS" is more a statement of "We don't know what is going on" than anything else. Science does not have a way to measure subjective experience. (I'm a scientist, and I do know how science works.)

[Jim Noble]

I think the diagnosis "PVS" is more a statement of "We don't know what is going on" than anything else.

And you are exactly correct.

Jennett B, Plum F. Persistent vegetative state after brain damage. Lancet 1972; i: 734-737

The reference is the first appearance in the literature of the term "PVS". I knew Fred Plum personally, and he was not at all dogmatic about the nature of the syndrome, certainly not to the point of using the term as a bright-line measuring tool to identify people who could be killed.

You are also exactly correct about the importance of this precedent.

[exDemMom]

Now what do you say? That they're lying, also?

Yes. People lie under oath all the time. Really, what's going to happen to them? Especially in this case, where the judge obviously has a preconceived bias?

[exDemMom]

Jennett B, Plum F. Persistent vegetative state after brain damage. Lancet 1972; i: 734-737

Unfortunately, this is a reference that requires actually physically going to a library to obtain. I'll see if the abstract is on-line, anyway.

[robertpaulsen]

Your "maybe" speaks volumes.

(Given that answer, it's probably then useless for me to point out that Michael was not the only one giving sworn testimony as to Terri's wishes -- that two others testified similarly under oath.)

I can appreciate your feelings about the people who want to uphold Terri's wishes.

But understand that I, too, fear people like you who wish to impose their religious beliefs/standards/morals/philosophy over my expressed desire not to live in such a condition.

That you would burden my spouse, my parents, and my children, both financially and emotionally, with my care is reprehensible.

[Jim Noble]

I, too, fear people like you who wish to impose their religious beliefs/standards/morals/philosophy over my expressed desire not to live in such a condition

Yes, I understand.

You perhaps do not understand that the societal bias favors killing the weak and vulnerable-and always has.

The "no direct killing" rule is a bright line that's easy to enforce.

Other approaches which allow direct killing in other-than-predeath situations are very difficult to monitor and are subject to abuse.

[js1138]

The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.

-- William Shakespeare

[robertpaulsen]

"You perhaps do not understand that the societal bias favors killing the weak and vulnerable-and always has."

Active euthanasia is perhaps a better topic for another day on a different thread. That is not the subject here.

"The "no direct killing" rule is a bright line that's easy to enforce."

Sure, if you're one who believes that everything is either black or white. Be that as it may, that is still not the subject of this thread.

We are discussing the removal of a feeding tube at the patient's request, a verbal desire stated years before the incident. If her request back then had been in writing, no one would have ever heard of Terri Schiavo.

It is disingenuous of you to attempt to turn this into something it isn't. This is not about active euthanasia. This is not about passive euthanasia. This is not about some otherwise healthy person wishing to die.

This is about fulfilling the patient's wishes, wishes made before they were in the brain damaged, non-recoverable, artificially supported condition that they expressly indicated they would not want to be.

[grassboots.org]

"This is about repecting a persons wishes."

Yes, it was - the wishes of Michael Schiavo and JINO Greer.

[grassboots.org]

Why did the police food and water to be given by mouth if she was incapable? She was swallowing her own saliva - she had no aspirator. You really wanted that woman dead, didn't you?

[maine-iac7]

I saw the video. What was it, mere seconds out of 4 hours of taping? I bet I can give a monkey a typewriter and have him bang away on it for 4 hours. At the end of that time, how much you wanna bet that there is the word "maine" buried in there somewhere? So what should I conclude from that?

I would be interested if someone - anyone but the poster robertpaulsen - could interpret this for me

the video in question is one you probably have not see - Shocking one of Terri absolutely responding EMPHATICALLY _

copy/paste this URL and watch it if you dare

http://web.Tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

Terri tried so hard - but they suppressed it and murdered her. You will hear much evidence of what really went down in the coming weeks - and anyone who erred on the side of this death=murder will hang their head, if they any conscience at all.

[robertpaulsen]

"but they suppressed it"

I want to see the entire tape, not just some snippet. Her parents are the ones doing the suppressing.

[maine-iac7]

I think that Felos and Greer's goal in this case is to set exactly this precedent. Once the precedent is enshrined in law, I'm afraid that even a clearly stated "Give me medical treatment, I don't want to be killed" living will have no legal weight ...etc

This is about as loud a wake-up call that any people in any history has had. We ignore it to our peril - indeed, our lives.

Please look at and distribute this video of Terri that has NOT been on TV - that shows her complying to the dr. request to open her eyes...She is evidently asleep at first and it takes a few seconds for her hear and process the request, but when she does, she not only opens her eyes - she arches he eyebrows high and opens her eyes extra wide as if to say "how's THIS!" It makes you wonder how she could've improved had she been allowed therapy!

It will make you laugh - and then cry for the murder we have just witnessed...

PLEASE watch this and send to everyone in the media - AND everyone on your email list. we must all become aware of what the deathCrats have in mind for us. This is exactly how Hitler started.

http://web.Tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

[maine-iac7]

This is not about active euthanasia. This is not about passive euthanasia.

you are right in this one phrase of your post in which you state, categorically, that Terri wanted to die...it is NOT about active or passive euthanasia -

it's about "involuntary euthanasia" - or "Black Robe euthanasia"

Or, since Greer is legally blind, it might be called

death by BLIND JUSTICE

[exDemMom]

Thanks, I saw the Terri videos several weeks ago.

[maine-iac7]

Thanks, I saw the Terri videos several weeks ago.

I saw a cluster of them a few weeks ago also - but this one wasn't in there - this one is astounding