No. A good historian reports what people said and did. Revisionists publish something else entirely.
Posted on 04/19/2005 11:56:55 AM PDT by MadIvan
1. It's a fact,
2. It makes logical sense, and [...]
We get facts from books. I quoted mine. You did not, -- you reflect the common belief that the Axis were wrong in everything. I explained the logic of events amply.
3. The most authoritative source WHO WAS THERE [Kaiser Wilhelm] said that, specificly.
I explained that about four times. The Kaiser said that diplomacy succeeded in preventing the war, then, after his generals explained their war doctrine, changed his mind, as he should have. When your military tells you that they cannot defend the country unless the country mobilizes right away, you listen. All that you quote shows is that the Kaiser was trying to find a peaceful resolution till the very end.
Keegan is a historical revisionist, as are you.
A job of a historian is to examine evidence afresh and make his own conclusions. A good historian is a revisionist. Now, the term is sometimes used to identify someone with a preconceived, usually ethnic, bias, who makes the facts fit the bias. None of that here: Keegan is English. I am just quoting him, but I have no attachment of any kind to Austria; ethnically, I am Russian.
No. A good historian reports what people said and did. Revisionists publish something else entirely.
You've explained nothing save for your own misunderstanding.
To wit: Mobilization for the Balkan War of 1912 did *not* lead to a Great Power conflict. Two years later, mobilization did not have to mean world war, either.
That you claim otherwise shows how far off-track you've gotten.
You got your "facts" from a revisionist book writer who wasn't even there at the time.
In contrast, I quoted the ACTUAL PEOPLE INVOLVED.
That is what Keegan did. You don't like it, -- prove the facts were different.
Mobilization for the Balkan War of 1912 did *not* lead to a Great Power conflict
Russia did not mobilize in 1912. The conflict was contained to the Balkans, of which no one ever cared.
I quoted the ACTUAL PEOPLE INVOLVED
Need a fifth time? The Kaiser was convinced to change his mind. And by the way, what was the context and the time when the pronouncement you quote was made?
Austria delivered an ultimatum to Serbia on 23rd July. Its harsh terms were intended to be unacceptable, for, in effect, they demanded that Austria be given control over Serbian internal affairs.
Next day, Germany caused consternation in Russia, Great Britain, and France when it delivered notes to each, stating that the Austrian demands were fair and which also warned these Countries not to interfere in Austro-Serbian affairs.
Unexpectedly, Serbia acceded to most of the Austrian demands, and, on hearing this, the Kaiser, thinking that threats had been enough, was satisfied.
Too late! Momentum now controlled reason and the destinies of young men moved inexorably from the light into the shadow of death. A range of threats, proposals, understandings, notes, and reports all jumbled together and produced no solution.
The Explosion
At 11 a.m. on 28th July Austria pre-empted further negotiation and declared war on Serbia.
The generals of all the rival Continental nations had their war plans, and military necessity and the mobilisation of armies now took precedence over the last hopes of politicians. On 31st both the Emperors of Russia and Austria ordered a mobilisation of all their respective armies. Germany started mobilising on 1st August.
http://users.tibus.com/the-great-war/road_to.htm
Unexpectedly, Serbia acceded to most of the Austrian demands, and, on hearing this, the Kaiser, thinking that threats had been enough, was satisfied.He glosses over the part about rejection of the central demand, and attaching conditions to others, thus perpetuating the myth of Serbian compliance with the ultimatum. He also does not mention the fact that Serbia mobilized and Russia formally entered the state of preparation for war, before Serbian response was delivered.
Russia didn't mobilize until July 31st. You haven't really grasped the timeline, have you?!
As for Serbia mobilizing, that was Austria's intention when it placed the 48 hour time limit on its ultimatum. Of course Serbia mobilized after recieving such harsh demands, as they could only be viewed as an Austrian excuse for war due to their undiplomatic nature. Well, Austria got what it wanted. Serbia did indeed mobilize.
But Austria got two things for which it *didn't* want or expect, as well. The first was that Serbia caved to 3 of Austria's 4 main demands, and suggested that the 4th Austrian demand be submitted to the Hague for arbitration. This acceptance of Austria's harsh terms (no term was outright rejected per Austria's plan) was unexpected.
Austria's second surprise was that after it invaded tiny Serbia, that the Serb Army roundly beat the Austrian invasion force. It took another full year, and the combined might of Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Bulgaria to finally conquer Serbia.
I did not say anything about Russia's mobilization. I said, "Russia formally entered the state of preparation for war", which it did.
On the morning of 25 July [...] [t]he Tsar, though not yet ready to proclaim mobilisation, had announced the preliminary "Period Preparatory to War" at eleven o'clock.(post 249)
Sure you have. You've just been caught being disingenious about it.
You claimed, for instance, that it was the mobilization that led to war.
Then you'll point to Russia's announcement of preparations, clearly implying that Russia was mobilizing.
But Russia didn't mobilize (not yet); that's an inconvenient fact in both yours and Keegan's absurd historical revisionism...a fact that is easy to expose when viewed next to the timeline for war.
If anyone along with you is having trouble reading what I post, he can complain to me.
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