Note to Tom Sullivan: Thomas Jefferson was not a Deist.

World Net Daily ^ | 4/28/2005 | D. James Kennedy, Ph.D.

[El Gato]

A belief that there is a future state of rewards and punishments (as Jefferson believed) denies the basic premise of Deism -- that the creator does not interfere with the laws of the universe. I know very little about Deism, but I don't understand the logic of that statement. The "rewards and punishments" need not be in this universe, but the next, so believing in a future state of rewards and punishments would not seem to conflict with the notion that the Creator no longer interferes with the laws of the universe as He originally created them.

[El Gato]

If Jefferson was so religious, why then did he start an evil worshipping, US hating, muderer loving, tax the people to death cult called the Democ-rat party?

Because he didn't? The Evil Ones have just coopted his name for their foul organization. Jefferson, like most of the Founding Fathers, both Federalists and anti-Federalists (of which he was one) were (small 'r') republicans.

[El Gato]

No one's claiming Jefferson (or any other protestants at the time) liked Catholics. If I'm not mistaken, "priest" was meant literally here

Anglican clergy are are called "priests" are they not? As are the clergy of their American (US) spin off the Episcopalians, I'm sure there are others as well.

[El Gato]

Mentioning Christianity would have been redundant since the nation was already an exclusively Christian nation.

There were a number of Jews in the American colonies, several of them prominent in the Revolution, including Haym Salomon, the "financier" of the patriot cause, Isaac Franks, aide-de-camp to General George Washington, and Francis Salvador, the first identified Jew to be elected to an American colonial legislature, the only Jew to serve in a revolutionary colonial congress and the first Jew to die for the cause of American liberty. There may have even been a few Musslemen, from the Muslim parts of the British Empire, Hindus too I suppose, but neither would have had the numbers of the Jews.

That's not to say there were as many Jews proportionally as today, but then again there weren't as many Catholics either, even not including the Hispanic catholics of today, since that was also before the large waves of legal immigration of Irish and Italians.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>> I know very little about Deism, but I don't understand the logic of that statement. The "rewards and punishments" need not be in this universe, but the next, so believing in a future state of rewards and punishments would not seem to conflict with the notion that the Creator no longer interferes with the laws of the universe as He originally created them. <<<

I don't understand your logic. For there to be a future state of rewards and punishments, there must be a time when our Creator 'steps-in' and controls the future of, at least, some people. In Deism there is never any interference by the creator-- never a time when the creator 'steps-in'.

[PhilipFreneau]

There were a number of Jews in the American colonies, several of them prominent in the Revolution, including Haym Salomon, the "financier" of the patriot cause, Isaac Franks, aide-de-camp to General George Washington, and Francis Salvador, the first identified Jew to be elected to an American colonial legislature, the only Jew to serve in a revolutionary colonial congress and the first Jew to die for the cause of American liberty. There may have even been a few Musslemen, from the Muslim parts of the British Empire, Hindus too I suppose, but neither would have had the numbers of the Jews.

Certainly there were other religions in the colonies. But, as George Washington put it, "With slight shades of differences, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles."

I suspect Washington understood the nation better than anyone today.

Regarding other religions, Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution, Vol III, wrote:

"The real object of the [first] amendment was, not to countenance, much less to advance Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment, which should give to an hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government. . . .

The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion, the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to him for all our actions, founded upon moral freedom and accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues;— these never can be a matter of indifference in any well ordered community. . .

Now, there will probably be found few persons in this, or any other Christian country, who would deliberately contend, that it was unreasonable, or unjust to foster and encourage the Christian religion generally, as a matter of sound policy, as well as of revealed truth. In fact, every American colony, from its foundation down to the revolution, . . . did openly, by the whole course of its laws and institutions, support and sustain, in some form, the Christian religion; and almost invariably gave a peculiar sanction to some of its fundamental doctrines. And this has continued to be the case in some of the states down to the present period, without the slightest suspicion, that it was against the principles of public law, or republican liberty."

[CarolinaGuitarman]

""God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can these liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my Country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
-Notes on the State of Virgina

NO DEIST WROTE THAT."

There is nothing inconsistent with Deism in Jefferson's quote. Deists in the 18th century often DID believe in an afterlife and a day of judgment. Again, I am not saying that PROVES Jefferson was a Deist; just that the above statement does not disqualify him from being one.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thomas Jefferson (who despised the "primitive" G-d of the "old testament" and said he didn't care how many "gxds" his neighbor worshipped) was a chr*stian only in the sense that he considered himself a "disciple of the ethical teachings of J*sus." He utterly rejected the supernatural and famously eviscerated his own Bible with a razor blade.

I sympathize with D. James Kennedy, but he (not being a Fundamentalist Zionist) has the traditional need to legitimize chr*stianity by tying it to his country's origin. The simple fact is, the true religion is the true religion regardless of the beliefs of the founders of any country, and the need to make the United States a "presbyterian nation" smacks of the old pre-monotheistic concept of a subjective national "gxd."

HaShem is G-d. The American Founders have no authority on the subject any more than the founders of Switzerland, Argentina, or Japan.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"I don't understand your logic. For there to be a future state of rewards and punishments, there must be a time when our Creator 'steps-in' and controls the future of, at least, some people. In Deism there is never any interference by the creator-- never a time when the creator 'steps-in'."

There is no inconsistency. To a Deist God created the universe, set it in motion, and then did not interfere with the workings of said universe. They believed that this Creator was wise enough to make a world where people could still freely choose their actions, and would ultimately be responsible for the consequences of said actions. When we died our actions on Earth would be rewarded or punished according to how we lived. The Creator didn't have to interfere with the order of the universe in order for this to happen; it was considered another part of the natural order of things (which was set in motion by a benevolent, loving Creator at some point in the past).

Almost all Deists believed that there were Moral Laws in addition to the physical laws of nature. Most also thought that the greatest system of morality was discovered by Jesus; therefore it was good for society to follow his teachings.

Again I say, I don't know enough about Jefferson specifically to say if he was a Deist or not; I need to read more of his writings. I am just speaking about Deism in general.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>There is no inconsistency. To a Deist God created the universe, set it in motion, and then did not interfere with the workings of said universe. They believed that this Creator was wise enough to make a world where people could still freely choose their actions, and would ultimately be responsible for the consequences of said actions. When we died our actions on Earth would be rewarded or punished according to how we lived. The Creator didn't have to interfere with the order of the universe in order for this to happen; it was considered another part of the natural order of things (which was set in motion by a benevolent, loving Creator at some point in the past).<<<

What you describe sounds like a passage from the Hebrews, which reads, "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Another verse with that tone is Ephesians 1:4-5, which reads, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"...

If you keep tweaking the definition of Deism in the direction you are taking it, soon you will be convincing me I am a deist. LOL.

Seriously, in Christian theology there were many interferences: from leading the children of Israel out of bondage in Egypt; to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Christian Church, which grew out of the martydom of Jesus' disciples and early followers, eventually led to the creation of a great nation -- the United States of America -- which prevented global tyranny by defeating, first, the Nazi's, and, next, the Communists.

While it is certainly possible -- even likely -- that God preordained all things from the beginning of His creation; it is doubtful such activities by the Creator can logically be labeled desism, in the modern sense of the term.

[GarySpFc]

Benjamin Franklin, "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?
"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, June 28, 1787 Constitutional Convention

The deism of Jefferson and Franklin is not what we have today. They believed that God works in the every day life of man, which is totally contrary to modern deism.

[Mach9]

Some are--and have a right to be so called, dating back to Elizabethan times when ordinations of Anglican "priests" were performed by duly consecrated (i.e. Roman Catholic) bishops. But by Jefferson's day (especially during the French Revolution & after), "priest" suggested aristo & RC. Just seems unlikely that a protestant (high church or not) and French-Revolution supporter of those times would refer to ANY protestant minister as "priest."

[Tired of Taxes]

They did not foresee the ACLU, People for the American Way, and other God-hating groups in the future.

But you'd think a devoutly Christian group of men, who (as so many here say) were forming a Christian nation for (Protestant) Christians, would at least have mentioned so somewhere in the Constitution. Something like: "As Christians, we..." Or maybe: "In this Christian nation, the U.S. gov't..." Yet, not even a word about it is made there.

[Tired of Taxes]

It is clear the Founding Fathers favored traditional Christian moralities; but they were also concerned with government legislated ideologies of a selective, immoral or oppressive nature. However, they were just as fearful of government legislating religious morality out of our lives.

Agreed, on the above statement.

Mentioning Christianity would have been redundant since the nation was already an exclusively Christian nation.

So, imagine that you, as (presumably) a Christian, were helping to form a new nation for Christians (including all the denominations) specifically... Wouldn't you say so somewhere in the most important legal document of that country? Just a word about it. Yet, they covered every other detail and left that out.

That's why this subject is so open to debate and will always be so. Even the wording of the Declaration of Independence gives them the appearance of Deists, with terms like "the Laws of Nature" and "Nature's God" and "Creator". There's nothing very specifically Christian in that document, either.

The other writings of the different men can be presented and examined, but their coming together to create those very important documents speaks volumes. It seems that they were more concerned with the principles of natural law than with the more specific tenets of Christianity... which may be exactly what you were saying... hehe... and I'm the one being redundant now...?