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The War We Could Have Won [Truth on 'Nam published in NY Times!]
The New York Times ^ | May 1, 2005 | By STEPHEN J. MORRIS

Posted on 05/01/2005 10:34:32 AM PDT by aculeus

THE Vietnam War is universally regarded as a disaster for what it did to the American and Vietnamese people. However, 30 years after the war's end, the reasons for its outcome remain a matter of dispute.

The most popular explanation among historians and journalists is that the defeat was a result of American policy makers' cold-war-driven misunderstanding of North Vietnam's leaders as dangerous Communists. In truth, they argue, we were fighting a nationalist movement with great popular support. In this view, "our side," South Vietnam, was a creation of foreigners and led by a corrupt urban elite with no popular roots. Hence it could never prevail, not even with a half-million American troops, making the war "unwinnable."

This simple explanation is repudiated by powerful historical evidence, both old and new. Its proponents mistakenly base their conclusions on the situation in Vietnam during the 1950's and early 1960's and ignore the changing course of the war (notably, the increasing success of President Richard Nixon's Vietnamization strategy) and the evolution of South Vietnamese society (in particular the introduction of agrarian reforms).

For all the claims of popular support for the Vietcong insurgency, far more South Vietnamese peasants fought on the side of Saigon than on the side of Hanoi. The Vietcong were basically defeated by the beginning of 1972, which is why the North Vietnamese launched a huge conventional offensive at the end of March that year. During the Easter Offensive of 1972 - at the time the biggest campaign of the war - the South Vietnamese Army was able to hold onto every one of the 44 provincial capitals except Quang Tri, which it regained a few months later. The South Vietnamese relied on American air support during that offensive.

If the United States had provided that level of support in 1975, when South Vietnam collapsed in the face of another North Vietnamese offensive, the outcome might have been at least the same as in 1972. But intense lobbying of Congress by the antiwar movement, especially in the context of the Watergate scandal, helped to drive cutbacks of American aid in 1974. Combined with the impact of the world oil crisis and inflation of 1973-74, the results were devastating for the south. As the triumphant North Vietnamese commander, Gen. Van Tien Dung, wrote later, President Nguyen Van Thieu of South Vietnam was forced to fight "a poor man's war."

Even Hanoi's main patron, the Soviet Union, was convinced that a North Vietnamese military victory was highly unlikely. Evidence from Soviet Communist Party archives suggests that, until 1974, Soviet military intelligence analysts and diplomats never believed that the North Vietnamese would be victorious on the battlefield. Only political and diplomatic efforts could succeed. Moscow thought that the South Vietnamese government was strong enough to defend itself with a continuation of American logistical support. The former Soviet chargé d'affaires in Hanoi during the 1970's told me in Moscow in late 1993 that if one looked at the balance of forces, one could not predict that the South would be defeated. Until 1975, Moscow was not only impressed by American military power and political will, it also clearly had no desire to go to war with the United States over Vietnam. But after 1975, Soviet fear of the United States dissipated.

During the war the Soviets despised their North Vietnamese "friends" (the term of confidential bureaucratic reference, rather than "comrades"). Indeed, Henry A. Kissinger's accounts of his dealings, as Nixon's national security adviser, with President Thieu are models of respect when compared with the bitter Soviet accounts of their difficulties with their counterparts.

In secret internal reports, Hanoi-based Soviet diplomats regularly complained about the deceitfulness of the North Vietnamese, who concealed strategic planning from their more powerful patron. In a 1972 report to Moscow, the Soviet ambassador even complained that although Marshal Pavel Batitsky, commander of the Soviet Air Defense Forces, had visited Hanoi earlier that year and completed a major military aid agreement, North Vietnamese leaders did not inform him of the imminent launch date of their Easter Offensive.

What is also clear from Soviet archival sources is that those who believed that North Vietnam had more than national unification on its mind were right: Its leaders were imbued with a sense of their ideological mission - not only to unify Vietnam under Communist Party rule, but also to support the victory of Communists in other nations. They saw themselves as the outpost of world revolution in Southeast Asia and desired to help Communists in Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and elsewhere.

Soviet archives show that after the war ended in 1975, with American power in retreat, Hanoi used part of its captured American arsenal to support Communist revolutions around the world. In 1980 some of these weapons were shipped via Cuba to El Salvador. This dimension of Vietnamese behavior derived from a deep commitment to the messianic internationalism of Marxist-Leninist ideology.

Vietnam today is not the North Vietnam of 1955, 1965 or 1975. Like post-Mao China it has retreated from totalitarianism to authoritarianism. It has reformed its economy and its foreign policy to become more integrated into the world. But those changes were not inevitable and would not necessarily have occurred had Mikhail Gorbachev not ascended to power in Moscow, and had the Soviet Union and its empire not collapsed. Nor would these changes necessarily have occurred had China not provided a new cultural model for Vietnam to follow, as it has for centuries.

Precisely because Vietnam has changed for the better, we need to recognize what a profoundly ideological and aggressive totalitarian regime we faced three, four and five decades ago. And out of respect for the evidence of history, we need to recognize what happened in the 1970's and why.

In 1974-75, the United States snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Hundreds of thousands of our Vietnamese allies were incarcerated, and more than a million driven into exile. The awesome image of the United States was diminished, and its enemies were thereby emboldened, drawing the United States into new conflicts by proxy in Afghanistan, Africa and Latin America. And the bitterness of so many American war veterans, who saw their sacrifices so casually demeaned and unnecessarily squandered, haunts American society and political life to this day.

Stephen J. Morris, a fellow at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, is writing a book on the Vietnam War in the Nixon years.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company


TOPICS: Editorial
KEYWORDS: antiwarmovement; arvn; hanoi; nva; peaceniks; sellout; southeastasia; tet; tetoffensive; vc; vietcong; vietnam; vietnamwar
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The Congressional Dems cutoff of financial aid to our allies was disgraceful and unforgivable.
1 posted on 05/01/2005 10:34:32 AM PDT by aculeus
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To: aculeus

Agreed.

The lefties in Congress who did that have much innocent blood on their hands. It is truly shocking that some of them are still in Congrress today!


2 posted on 05/01/2005 10:38:11 AM PDT by BenLurkin (O beautiful for patriot dream - that sees beyond the years)
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To: aculeus
And the one responsible for maligning our nation's Vietnam War Vets was nominated by his party last year to be its presidential nominee. That's what keeps haunting American society and political life to this day.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
3 posted on 05/01/2005 10:39:01 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: aculeus

Ping for later reading


4 posted on 05/01/2005 10:39:06 AM PDT by warsaw44
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To: aculeus

The democrats believed/believe that our Vietnamese allies were nothing more than property to be disposed of by their keepers in any way they saw fit. They're not opposed to dictatorships because that's the only way they can stamp out the concept of the individual...but killing them


5 posted on 05/01/2005 10:40:11 AM PDT by jess35
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To: aculeus

The Democrats undid the election of 1972 and tossed the Republican party into exile. 1974-80 were dark years for this country at home and abroad. It was a time the Democrats ran the show.

The squealed like castrated pigs when the Gipper stomped them in 1980.


6 posted on 05/01/2005 10:41:41 AM PDT by Luke21
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To: aculeus

The New York Times, and their lot were partially to blame for the loss. They did everything they could to demean the war effort.


7 posted on 05/01/2005 10:42:10 AM PDT by Sthitch
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To: aculeus

bump


8 posted on 05/01/2005 10:42:23 AM PDT by bubman
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To: aculeus
The Congressional Dems cutoff of financial aid to our allies was disgraceful and unforgivable.

That combined with Lyndon Johnson's gross mismanagement and lack of principles was the deathblow for the Vietnam War. Their behavior was absolutely disgraceful and gave the liberal anti-war scum a victory beyond their wildest dreams.

Nowadays, they point to Vietnam and say, "See, nation-building is impossible. Winning against an insurgency is impossible." Their answer to tyrants like Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, the Khmer Rouge, and Rwanda is to do some token bitching, send them money, and kowtow to their murderous deeds because Vietnam "proved" that such intervention is morally wrong and impossible to change. Liberals are truly disgusting.

9 posted on 05/01/2005 10:43:53 AM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Proud infidel since 1970.)
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To: Sthitch
Yep. And last year they lauded the faked exploits of Kerry... in a war they all hated.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
10 posted on 05/01/2005 10:45:01 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Sthitch

And they're trying to do the same thing with Iraq. People are onto them and it's not working today. The MSM was the gold standard then. Now they're the crumbling example of what is wrong with America and a LOT of people know it!


11 posted on 05/01/2005 10:45:39 AM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Proud infidel since 1970.)
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To: aculeus
Morris doesn't say how many South Vietnamese were killed by the Communists after their victory in 1975. Has anyone made a serious effort to determine that figure?

Many thousands more must have died trying to escape by sea, but I would assume there is no way to tell how many--people who died on unseaworthy boats (like Elian Gonzalez's mother did trying to get away from another Communist paradise).

12 posted on 05/01/2005 10:51:42 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: aculeus

The moral to this story is, that America called these brave men to defend our country, from the communist's ambitions. All gave some, some gave all. Each is owed a debt of gratitude by our nation and every one of us who enjoys the freedoms that are their legacy. God bless them all. End of story.


13 posted on 05/01/2005 10:52:34 AM PDT by Search4Truth (When a man lies he murders some part of the world.)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: Verginius Rufus

Yes, but for obvious reasons the Vietnamese government is not helping out. The best estimates I've seen put the numbers at several million between 1975 and 1982. The exact number will never be known, I'm afraid.


15 posted on 05/01/2005 10:57:41 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: aculeus

Wasn't Sen Kerry of Mass. one of those Viet Nam war criminals?


16 posted on 05/01/2005 11:00:43 AM PDT by Young Werther
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To: Sthitch
The New York Times, and their lot were partially to blame for the loss. They did everything they could to demean the war effort.

The exact same thing they are doing now.

17 posted on 05/01/2005 11:01:02 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: kennedy6979
You're right

It's amazing anyone would consider the NY Times printing a legitimate story. They haven't in the past, and they mislead now. The US military were winning the war in Vietnam. What we lost was the peace after bugging out and failing to support the South Vietnamese afterwards. That support was expressly stopped by Democrats in congress.

18 posted on 05/01/2005 11:04:31 AM PDT by Morgan in Denver
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To: goldstategop

"And the one responsible for maligning our nation's Vietnam War Vets was nominated by his party last year to be its presidential nominee."

Yes, and they thought they'd get away with it. God Bless John O'Neil and the Swift Boat Vets for bursting that bubble!


19 posted on 05/01/2005 11:05:08 AM PDT by jocon307 (dang, I lost my tagline, again!)
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To: Young Werther
See my posts #3 and #10. Kerry claimed his fellow Vietnam Vets WERE war criminals. And that brought out the Swift Boat Vets to make sure he never rode into the White House on the backs of his politically motivated slander of decent Americans fighting and dying for their country in the jungles and rice paddies of Southeast Asia.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
20 posted on 05/01/2005 11:05:33 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: aculeus

We did win the war. The North simply invaded in violation of a treaty.


21 posted on 05/01/2005 11:06:59 AM PDT by Casloy
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To: aculeus
When I left Vietnam after my second tour in Sept 1967 I was convinced that we were winning the war. By the time I went back for my third tour in Sept 1969 we were on the ropes. Our troops were still fighting hard against regular NVA units (the VC had been all but destroyed during Tet 68) and morale was affected because the anti war factions and liberal politicians had convinced the American people that we lost the war during Tet 1968.

Nixon let us go into Cambodia after the communist in 1970 but even then the politicos tied our hands with time and distance limits. The communist just pulled back and let us get to that 25 mile limit and waited for us to leave when we got to the time limit.

The lessons learned were many, but no one wanted to listen or cared. Except that is for a small core of Junior officers who 20 years later kept the media on a short lists and demanded to be let do their jobs. The difference in one war was defeat and the other two wars was victory.
22 posted on 05/01/2005 11:07:54 AM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: aculeus
A democrat is anti-American and pro enemy of the American People. It was not always so but during the 1970's the radical left took over the party and changed it into an anti-American radical bunch of scum bags.
24 posted on 05/01/2005 11:21:10 AM PDT by YOUGOTIT
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To: aculeus
On another thread, a mopey liberal writes about the boomers being "the greediest generation." Not all of them. The American men and women who went to Viet Nam played a critical role in preventing the fullscale communist conquest of the Pacific rim. They did so by fighting in some of the most hostile environs imaginable, against an enemy who's ire had been greatly provoked for the prior decade by French Foreign Legionaires, many of them nazi's fleeing their own names.

When they came home, other members of their own generation who were too enlightened to fight spat on, shat on, and slandered them. The elected officials who had hung the vets out to dry, then had the unmitigated gall to solicit their votes, which, with a drop in the voting age, gave the left side of the boomer generation unprecedented power.

The height of esteem in which I hold our Viet Nam veterans is matched only by the depth of my contempt for the protestors. The ideological left is never any good for America, but with the numbers and power they had in this era, they did to American Culture and Society what a swarm of locusts does to a corn field.

The vast majority of contemporary American maladies, be they economic, spiritual, moral or cultural can be laid directly in the lap of the 60's-70's left.

25 posted on 05/01/2005 11:23:55 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack
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To: kennedy6979
Kerry was among the worst, but there is plenty of blame to go around, all Democrats. Rags like the NY Times demonized our troops and provided a constant drum about our losing the war, which we weren't, but it took its toll. Few in the media and press informed the public of the truth, so it's understandable why public opinion was skewed incorrectly. Vietnam remains the biggest fraud perpetrated on an unsuspecting public in my lifetime.

Ronald Reagan, ending the Fairness Doctrine, gave the Rush Limbaugh's of the world an open forum and helped lead to the success of FOX, the Internet and the blogs that began filling in the blanks. Today, the propaganda arm of the left is in a downfall as more people realize how biased and inaccurate they have been for years, and only honest reporting will go unscathed in the future. < /rant > (Sorry)

26 posted on 05/01/2005 11:27:14 AM PDT by Morgan in Denver
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To: aculeus

for later read


27 posted on 05/01/2005 11:27:25 AM PDT by baseballmom
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To: Joe 6-pack

bump!


28 posted on 05/01/2005 11:28:56 AM PDT by Liberty Valance (If you must filibuster, let the Constitution do the talkin')
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To: Joe 6-pack
The elected officials who had hung the vets out to dry, then had the unmitigated gall to solicit their votes

That's my explanation for the current "we support the troops" lie mouthed by the anti-war crowd.

They know vets and their relatives will vote for the rest of their lives and try to cover their anti-Americanism with that trite lie.

29 posted on 05/01/2005 11:29:28 AM PDT by aculeus (Ceci n'est pas une tag line.)
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

I agree the Vietnam War could have ended in a "victory", if the United States had used all its military power early in the conflict.
Two factors worked against that: the demand that the US keep large conventional forces committed to NATO and poor leadership, both civilian and military.
Tragedy flowed from both factors.


31 posted on 05/01/2005 11:36:21 AM PDT by quadrant
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To: Morgan in Denver

Kerry, Fonda, Chomsky and Ramsey Clark should have gone through the "re-education" prison camps of post-war Viet Nam. That is their pro-communist legacy. They should be ashamed to show their faces in public for what they did to Viet Nam and America.


32 posted on 05/01/2005 11:39:44 AM PDT by Liberty Valance (If you must filibuster, let the Constitution do the talkin')
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To: Verginius Rufus; aculeus

I believe morethan one million people died in the "killing fields" -- I suppose this is not a large enough number of bodies for Morris/NYT to mention. Just as they don't mention the millions dead by Mao's cultural revolution that set the authoritarian stage for what is modern day China. The thrust of this article is that Vietnam is imitating China. That is BAD news.


33 posted on 05/01/2005 11:42:03 AM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: aculeus

And .. they've tried to do the same in Iraq - which produced the famous "I voted for it before I voted against it" statement from Kerry.


34 posted on 05/01/2005 11:42:58 AM PDT by CyberAnt (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
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To: aculeus

Is there a statute of limitations timetable on treason?


35 posted on 05/01/2005 11:43:20 AM PDT by Liberty Valance (If you must filibuster, let the Constitution do the talkin')
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To: All
Good article! The author's right. I remember.

So now, the traitors of that era want us to recognize communist VN today. Fine. But . .

Precisely because Vietnam has changed for the better, we need to recognize what a profoundly ideological and aggressive totalitarian regime we faced three, four and five decades ago. And out of respect for the evidence of history, we need to recognize what happened in the 1970's and why.

(We need to start at least as early as the 1968 Tet Offensive.)

What the author writes was not unknown at the time.

But the American Press had its eye on the General Giap coveted "Most Valuable Guerrilla" award and they were not to be denied that award.

I say that given the extra years, the tens of thousands of needless deaths of our military and our allied military dead and VN's civilian dead the press scum of that era, the political scum of that era, the academic scum of that era, the Hollywood scum of that era should all be tried for treason.

North Viet Nam's most trusted man in America, Walter Cronkite, spooked LBJ with his distorted reporting to the American public beginning in 1968.

I did not serve in Viet Nam and I am not an expert but IMO had LBJ backed U.S. military requests as our troops virtually annihilated the Viet Cong the North clearly would have started serious peace talks -- just as their post war writings admit. But good 'ol Walter, et al. went to work for their Ho in Hanoi.

36 posted on 05/01/2005 11:44:55 AM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: aculeus
Just my opinion but I think most of the anti-war protestors were not anti-war but simply wanted the Communists to win.

Same goes for a large part of the media, congress and academia.

37 posted on 05/01/2005 11:47:15 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: saquin

Bookmark for later reading


38 posted on 05/01/2005 11:49:27 AM PDT by saquin
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To: kennedy6979
The left believes they were right about Vietnam then, and they continue to believe they were right in their anti-war, pro-communist positions. None of that's changed, and one only has to watch the MSM or read the NY Times, or other leftist papers, to realize they still believe their own lies.

Admitting they were wrong is never going to happen because their view of history is sealed in their minds as accurate no matter what or how much proof is provided. This is why the Democrats today are so over the top with their hatred. They are convinced in their philosophy and believe they are anointed (ala Thomas Sowell) to lead us because the rest of America is too stupid and incapable of understanding the truth as they know it. Democrat condensation is apparent at every turn and they only remain as a major party because groups like the teachers unions, and minorities such as the majority of the black community, think these guys support them, when in fact the Democrats could care less. They are only interested in the power they can wield over others.

39 posted on 05/01/2005 11:51:40 AM PDT by Morgan in Denver
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To: Morgan in Denver
RE: the Fairness Doctrine

That's not ranting, that's good information. Thanks.

If you lived through that time beginning immediately after the left attempted to blame the emerging modern conservative movement for JFK's assassination through the end of the "Fairness Doctrine" and the beginning of modern talk radio then it is easy to see how very important it is to remember. Never again!

40 posted on 05/01/2005 11:59:23 AM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: Liberty Valance

Agreed, as should many in the press corps, and the MSM today.


41 posted on 05/01/2005 12:00:03 PM PDT by Morgan in Denver
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To: WilliamofCarmichael
I remember all too well the aftermath of JFK. Incredibly, the fact that the assassin was a Communist supporter of Castro seemed to be of no import.

It was blamed on conservatives, White Southerners, and gun nuts. Oddly enough, it still is to some degree.

Actually, Lee Harvey Oswald technically was a White Southerner but with a world view exactly the opposite of most.

42 posted on 05/01/2005 12:17:22 PM PDT by yarddog
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: quadrant

I was a radar navigator on B-52s during the late 60's-early 70's. We could have won the war in two week or so. By bombing the dike systems on the Red River during monsoon season, North Vietnam would have been under water. Game over!


44 posted on 05/01/2005 12:22:23 PM PDT by jslade (People who are easily offended......OFFEND ME!)
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To: aculeus; armymarinedad

Ping


45 posted on 05/01/2005 12:23:34 PM PDT by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghanistan Honor Roll students.And we're unlikely to get a look into this t)
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To: aculeus

From:
http://www.neoperspectives.com/kerryvietnam.htm

Prior to 1975 the North Vietnamese Communists had already killed between 50,000-100,000 of their own citizens in purges, terrors and 'land reforms'. (3) Upon reuniting their country, the North Vietnamese killed or sent to labor camps hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese citizens. Millions of refugees have since fled Vietnam. Known as 'the boat people', they sought refuge wherever they could. At least 100,000 people drowned fleeing the Communists. Others were attacked by pirates, or were repatriated to the hellish labor camps of Vietnam. Today, over 1.2 million South Vietnamese refugees live in the United States. Yet Kerry seemed to believe the primary threat to the Vietnamese people was that posed by the armed forces of the United States.

In December 1975, just months after Saigon fell, the government of neighboring Laos fell to a Vietnamese backed Communist force. Hundreds of thousands were killed in war, famine and political assassination (3). The Hmong tribespeople, loyal American allies before the pullout, were decimated, an estimated ten per cent of them were killed by Communist forces. (6)

On April 17th, 1975 the Khmer Rouge, a Communist guerrilla group led by Pol Pot, overthrew the US backed government (weakened by the US withdrawal) with the help of the North Vietnamese government and China. They forced all city dwellers into the countryside and to labor camps. During their rule, it is estimated that 2 million Cambodians died by starvation, torture or execution. 2 million Cambodians represented approximately 30% of the Cambodian population during that time. (7)

In sum, the American withdrawal left over 3 million dead and caused millions more to flee their homes. Today South East Asia is still impoverished and undemocratic. Growing up, we are taught that the 'domino effect' was a foolish, flawed theory. In reality, it was a perfect predictor of what came to pass. South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia fell to the Communists within a year. Burma battled Communists insurgencies, even while embarking on an even harsher form of socialism that starved it's population. Communist insurgencies, although not ultimately successful, increased in intensity in Thailand. It's possible that Communism could have spread even further and the insurgencies been more successful if the newly formed Communist nations hadn't turned on each other in another orgy of violence.

As these events unfolded, America suffered a terrible weakening of our national pride and our moral leadership in the world was shaken. We were not defeated on the battlefield, we were defeated by weak national leadership and by public opinion here at home.




From http://www.neoperspectives.com/kerryconclusion.htm

Communism is the greatest evil that man has ever known. It is responsible for more than 100 millions deaths (more than all the wars in history combined), millions and millions of refugees and the subjugation and slavery of over 2 billion people since WWII. Communist regimes always follow a similar pattern. A Communist regime has never been elected, so first Communists must orchestrate a revolution, often with the support of funding from preexisting Communist regime. Next, Communists dissolve private property, nationalize media and begin a brutal purge of political prisoners and the upper classes. To conduct it's class warfare and maintain control of the revolting people, the state will militarize, establish a large secret police presence, and create horrific labor/reeducation camps. The economy collapses, failed farm policies result in starvation, refugees flee, and the government begins to export Communist revolution abroad. How far the government is willing to push the Communist philosophy will directly equate with the severity of these events and the suffering of their people. This exact pattern has come to pass in the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, North Korea, Angola, Eastern Europe, Yugoslavia, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Cuba. A few countries on this list have not experienced the true hell of Communism because the governments either didn't last long enough to take full root, or total Communist policies were not pursued in earnest. (67)


46 posted on 05/01/2005 12:28:28 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/foundingoftheunitedstates.htm)
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To: aculeus

read later


47 posted on 05/01/2005 12:29:26 PM PDT by TX Bluebonnet
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To: aculeus
"The Congressional Dems cutoff of financial aid to our allies was disgraceful and unforgivable.

Yes, Yes and Yes. What was even worse they had to make the sacrifice of so many of my friends meaningless and continue to do so. Traitors through and through.

48 posted on 05/01/2005 12:29:56 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: WilliamofCarmichael

Yep, I did. I've been around that long but don't let it out. Heck, I even wore an "I Like Ike" button once upon a time.


49 posted on 05/01/2005 12:37:27 PM PDT by Morgan in Denver
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To: aculeus

Oh, now the NYT figures it out. Decades after the fact, of course. Thanks. Thanks a lot.


50 posted on 05/01/2005 12:38:17 PM PDT by Rembrandt_fan
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