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DNA: The Tiny Code That's Toppling Evolution
Good News Magazine ^ | May 2005 | Mario Seiglie

Posted on 05/06/2005 7:36:09 PM PDT by DouglasKC

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To: raygun
snip Just because each of the components and physical constants of the universe in and of themselves have a higly improbable likelyhood of occuring, the fact they they all did simultaneously assemeble together into this universe means that the possibility of a universe constructed in the way it is is 100%.

This issue is not that "the possibility of the universe constructed this way it is is 100%".

The issue is rather that "the possiblity of the universe contructed this way it is, BY CHANCE ALONE, is virtually zero."

If the universe is undirected, then the likelyhood that the correct conditions to have assembled, to make US possible, are extremely, extremely small.

So, you have to have FAITH, that we got very, very, very lucky.

201 posted on 05/06/2005 10:48:26 PM PDT by GSHastings
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To: thompsonsjkc; odoso; animoveritas; St. Johann Tetzel; DaveTesla; mercygrace; ...

Moral Absolutes Ping.

Normally I avoid evolution/creationism threads like the plague, but this article kind of stood out. I admit I didn't read the whole thing - too late at night with my eyes at half mast.

BTW, my understanding of creationism doesn't include the earth being only 6000 years old; but that's neither here nor there. The important point, I believe, in these matters is this:

If life evolved from non-life, in a basically accidental and random manner, with no oversight from the Supreme Being, then life is meaningless. Is this true? Does this philosophy cause people to be hopeless and depressed, and search only for immediate sense flashes since there is no life after death, no soul, and no purpose to the universe?

Or are we better served by not clinging to the Darwinist evolutionary beliefs just because everyone else who matters does, and we'll be considered religious wingnuts if we don't agree? Aren't we better served if we open our minds to finding the truth?

Let me know if you want on/off this pinglist.


202 posted on 05/06/2005 10:48:47 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Resisting evil is our duty or we are as responsible as those promoting it.)
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To: Pan_Yan

Bingo.


203 posted on 05/06/2005 10:50:56 PM PDT by raygun
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To: little jeremiah
If life evolved from non-life, in a basically accidental and random manner, with no oversight from the Supreme Being, then life is meaningless. Is this true? Does this philosophy cause people to be hopeless and depressed, and search only for immediate sense flashes since there is no life after death, no soul, and no purpose to the universe?

Yes. They become Darwin Democrats.

204 posted on 05/06/2005 10:53:42 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Vote Republican - Vote morally correct!)
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To: DouglasKC

Bump to read when I'm wide awake.


205 posted on 05/06/2005 10:54:09 PM PDT by Bernard Marx (Don't make the mistake of interpreting my Civility as Servility)
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To: Tirian; John Valentine
To see how thin the ice has often been, read "Of Moths and Men" (check Amazon or google it - I forget the author). Written by a non-creationist, it shows how contrived the famous "pepper moth" experiments (industrial melanism) were that you read about in high school (Hint: in real life the moths never land on sooty tree trunks but on leaves). No one has ever been able to replicate the claimed selection advantage, but they have become mythic in more ways than one.

Wow, what a COMPLETE load of creationist horse crap!

I'm afraid that rather than demonstrate "how thin the ice has been" on the side of evolutionary biology, I'm afraid that instead you've just revealed how full of lies and errors the creationists typically are. The following was developed to deal with the same load of garbage about peppered moths from rabid creationist Jonathan Wells, but it also addresses and debunks each and every one of your own falsehoods. I especially like the pie charts which show the data that peppered moths rest on "tree trunks" or "trunk/branch joints" well over HALF the time -- what was that you were saying about how in "real life", the moths "never" rest on trunks, "but on leaves"? (Chart says: only 10.8% of the time on foliage). So what "real life" are you inhabiting that's different from the one the moths actually live in?

Also note that Judith Hooper's book, which you read, appears to "borrow" heavily from Wells's earlier deeply flawed creationist screed against the peppered moths. Hooper may or may not herself be a creationist, but she is at least naively repeating the creationist nonsense:

Chapter 7: Peppered Moths

So many things are wrong with Wells's treatment of peppered moths (Biston betularia) that it is hard to list them all; but I will try. The authoritative reference on this topic is Michael Majerus' 1998 book Melanism: Evolution in Action. This book includes two long chapters on Biston. The first chapter, "The peppered moth story," recounts the basic story of melanism in Biston, and relates how this story was pieced together by Kettlewell and others. The second chapter, "The peppered moth story dissected," gives a thorough critical review of the basic story, considering aspects and details of the basic story in the light of research (by Majerus and others) post-dating Kettlewell.

Crucially, however, Majerus clearly and explicitly concludes that, in his view, Kettlewell got things basically correct. At the beginning of his second peppered moth chapter, Majerus writes,

First, it is important to emphasize that, in my view, the huge wealth of additional data obtained since Kettlewell's initial predation papers (Kettlewell 1955a, 1956) does not undermine the basic qualitative deductions from that work. Differential bird predation of the typica and carbonaria forms, in habitats affected by industrial pollution to different degrees, is the primary influence of the evolution of melanism in the peppered moth (Majerus, 1998, p. 116).

Majerus is so clear on this point that one suspects that he was anticipating that his critique would be misinterpreted by non-peppered moth researchers. It seems that there is a "too good to be true" quality about the peppered moth story that leads people to interpret any hint of criticism as a sign that the whole basic story is crashing down. Scientists are by no means immune to this tendency, and indeed they may be more prone to it given the regularity with which popular ideas have been overturned throughout the history of science. The press has an even greater tendency towards snap judgements and oversimplifications when it comes to scientific discussions. Antievolutionists, on the other hand, have always been stuck muttering "it's just microevolution within a species." While this is true, the rapidity and obvious adaptiveness of the change effected by natural selection still seemed to give antievolutionists discomfort. Therefore, it is understandable that when Wells and his fans sniffed a scientific controversy over peppered moths (in truth it was a fairly marginal kind of controversy), they blew things way out of proportion.

Summary of Wells's treatment of moth resting places. To review, Wells's primary objection to the peppered moth story was this:

Most introductory textbooks now illustrate this classical story of natural selection with photographs of the two varieties of peppered moth resting on light- and dark-colored tree trunks. (Figure 7-1) What the textbooks don't explain, however, is that biologists have known since the 1980's that the classical story has some serious flaws. The most serious is that peppered moths in the wild don't even rest on tree trunks. The textbook photographs, it turns out, have been staged. (Icons, p. 138)

[Figure 7-1 is on Icons, p. 139; these are drawings by Icons illustrator Jody F. Sjogren; the source photo, if there is one, is not cited. Confusingly, the caption for the figure is not on page 139 but overleaf on page 140. These are not encouraging signs in a book purporting to critique textbooks.]

The discussion thus far has shown that Wells's "most serious objection" to the peppered moth story is completely baseless: first, peppered moths do in fact rest on tree trunks (a significant portion of the time although not the majority of the time, according to Majerus' data). Second, textbook photos are used to show relative crypsis of moth morphs, not to prove that peppered moths always rest in one section of the trees. And third, Majerus himself has taken unstaged photos of peppered moths on matching tree trunk backgrounds, and these are not significantly different than staged photos; this eviscerates whatever vestige of a point Wells thinks that he has.

The scientific literature. Having dealt with Wells's "most serious objection," let us turn to Wells's use of the scientific literature. The primary problem is that Wells gives inordinate weight to a few scattered review papers, by biologists who are not major peppered moth researchers [4], that question the standard view (that bird predation on different colored moths on differently polluted backgrounds caused the darkening of moth populations as pollution increased, and that as pollution decreased this process worked in the opposite direction). Their criticisms have been answered by peppered moth researchers (Grant, 1999; Cook, 2000; Grant and Clarke, 2000; Majerus, 2000). And, as pointed out in the introduction, since Wells bases his argument on the idea that the experts are disowning the 'icons' in their respective fields, Wells is falsified if those experts contradict him.


Book review of Hooper's "Of Moths and Men" from the peer-reviewed journal "Science":

Science, August 9, 2002 v297 i5583 p940(2)

Sour grapes of wrath. (Books: evolution). (Of Moths and Men Intrigue)_(book review) Bruce S. Grant.

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2002 American Association for the Advancement of Science. Due to publisher request, Science cannot be reproduced until 360 days after the original publication date.

Of Moths and Men Intrigue, Tragedy and the Peppered Moth

by Judith Hooper

Fourth Estate, London, 2002. 397 pp. 15.99 [pounds sterling]. ISBN 1-84115-392-3.

Of Moths and Men The Untold Story of Science and the Peppered Moth

Norton, New York, 2002. 397 pp. $26,95, C$38.99. ISBN 0-393-05121-8.

Mark Twain once quipped that reports of his death had been exaggerated. Recent reports exaggerate the death of industrial melanism as an exemplar of natural selection. The latest is Judith Hooper's Of Moths and Men, which promises "the untold story of science and the peppered moth." What it delivers is a quasi-scientific assessment of the evidence for natural selection in the peppered moth (Biston betularia), much of which is cast in doubt by the author's relentless suspicion of fraud. This is unfortunate. Hooper is a gifted writer. In places, her prose is quite enjoyable, even brilliant. But, sadly, the book is marred by numerous factual errors and by misrepresentations of concepts and controversies.

The fundamental problem is Hooper's failure to clearly distinguish the evidence for natural selection and the mechanism of selection. A dead body with a knife in its back is evidence that a murder has been committed. An inability to establish beyond reasonable doubt the guilt of the leading suspect does not mean that the murder did not occur.

Population geneticists define evolution as a change in allele (gene) frequency. Adult peppered moths come in a range of shades from mottled gray (pale) to jet black (melanic). We know from extensive genetic analysis that these phenotypes result from combinations of multiple alleles at a single locus. Changes in the percentages of the phenotypes in wild populations are well documented. The changes continue and are observable even now. The steady trajectory and speed of changes in allele frequencies indicate that this evolution results primarily from natural selection. J. B. S. Haldane's original calculation of a selection coefficient was estimated from the number of generations it took for the melanic phenotype to effectively replace the pale phenotype during the 19th century. More detailed records document recent changes. For example, near Liverpool, England, the melanic phenotype declined from 93 to 18% in 37 generations (one generation per year); this change is consistent with a 15% selective disadvantage to genotypes with the dominant (melanic) allele.

We have amassed enormous records of changes in allele frequency in peppered moth populations that cannot be explained in the absence of natural selection. But what is the mechanism of selection? Even the answer "we have no clue" would not invalidate the conclusion that selection has occurred, Fortunately, the circumstances have left clues.

Geographic and temporal variations in the incidence of melanism correlate with atmospheric levels of S[O.sub.2] and suspended particles. (The correlations are not perfect; gene flow by migration spreads alleles, even into populations where they are deleterious.) Light reflectance from tree bark declines as suspended particles increase. Across a range of backgrounds, the pale and melanic phenotypes are differently conspicuous to the human eye. As early as 1896, J. W. Tutt suspected that birds were selectively eating conspicuous phenotypes in habitats variously modified by industrial fallout; H. B. D. Kettlewell first tested Tutt's idea in the 1950s.

It is on Kettlewell and his experiments that Hooper focuses her attention. In a biography more akin to character assassination than to objective disclosure, she portrays Kettlewell as an insecure misfit so driven to please his "boss," E. B. Ford, that he is suspected (by Hooper) of fudging his data. She bases her case on experimental design changes that Kettlewell himself described in his papers and on a sudden increase in the recapture rate of marked moths released in polluted woodlands. Several obvious things that Hooper left unexamined affect the size of moth catches, and her case is unconvincing. In addition, she presents it as if the very evidence for natural selection in peppered moths depends on the validity of Kettlewell's experiments. But even me evidence for bird predation does not depend on them.

Fortunately, science assesses the correctness of work by testing its repeatability. Kettlewell's conclusions have been considered in eight separate field studies, of various designs, performed between 1966 and 1987. Some of the design changes--such as reducing the density of moths, randomly assigning moths to trees, altering locations on trees where moths were positioned, and positioning killed moths to control for differences in viability and dispersal--were made to correct deficiencies identified in his original experiments. L. M. Cook's regression analysis of fitness estimates from these experiments plotted against phenotype frequencies at their various locations shows the studies to be remarkably consistent (1).

Other mechanisms of selection have been proposed. An inherent physiological advantage of melanic over pale phenotypes is consistent with the rise and spread of melanism, but the widespread decline in melanism that followed the Clean Air Acts obviates that interpretation. Although the possibility remains that physiological differences might be facultative (changing with conditions), so far no experimental work supports this idea. To date, only selective predation by birds is backed by experiment.

Hooper's book turns bizarre when she showcases American biologist T D. Sargent as a wounded iconoclast whose career was stultified because Kettlewell dismissed his work. She argues that Sargent is now under attack because he questions the "classical explanation" for industrial melanism. Hooper garbles the controversy regarding background selection by moths, and she entertains Sargent's protracted speculation about phenotypic induction. (He has offered no evidence that melanism is an induced character in adult peppered moths.) But most egregious is Sargent's assertion that studies in North America falsify the classical explanation. The history of melanism in American peppered moths--which are conspecific with Kettlewell's moths, not a separate species as Hooper indicates--closely parallels what has occurred in Britain, and melanism is correlated in like manner with levels of atmospheric pollution (2). The American studies corroborate rather than contradict the classical explanation.

The case for natural selection in the evolution of melanism in peppered moths is actually much stronger today than it was during Kettlewell's time. Textbook accounts should be expanded to reflect this newer information, and they should not cite Of Moths and Men as a credible resource.

References

(1.) L. M. Cook, Biol. J. Linn. Soc. 69, 431 (2000).

(2.) B.S. Grant, L. L. Wiseman, J. Hered. 93, 86 (2002).

The author is in the Department of Biology, College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795, USA. E-mail: Geometrid@aol.com

Named Works: Of Moths and Men Intrigue, Tragedy and the Peppered Moth (Book)

 
    Article A90752848
Also see: FINE TUNING THE PEPPERED MOTH PARADIGM, which cites further evidence and further studies clearly supporting the role of natural selection in the ups-and-downs of the peppered moths dimorphic populations in different areas as the local soot levels rose and then later fell.

So... would you care to revise your BS statement?

206 posted on 05/06/2005 10:54:28 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: DouglasKC

Save.


207 posted on 05/06/2005 10:55:43 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Dig deeper, more ammo.)
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Comment #208 Removed by Moderator

To: DouglasKC

YEC SPOTREP


209 posted on 05/06/2005 11:04:11 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: DouglasKC
A most interesting article. With the discovery of DNA, it was obvious that a LARGE amount of information had to be crammed into a small space. Thus, it is not surprising it has been done with a computer like language. However, it is utterly fascinating.

I look forward to reading more about how it will effect evolutionary theory.

210 posted on 05/06/2005 11:08:03 PM PDT by TAdams8591 (Terri Schindler was NOT in coma, JUSTICE was.....)
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To: Ichneumon
The Kansas Board of Education has begun taking evidence from anti-evolution scientists in a bid to rewrite the state’s teaching standards to ensure that pupils learn alternatives to evolution that suggest a guiding hand in the origin of life.

All three members of the Kansas sub-committee support a change in the standards to tell students that evolution is only a theory, not a fact, and to include alternatives. The full Kansas school board, which is controlled by a 6-4 conservative majority, is expected to rewrite the standards in June, joining Ohio, which took a similar step three years ago. Legislators in Alabama and Georgia are also considering Bills to allow teachers to challenge Darwin in class.

here

211 posted on 05/06/2005 11:09:56 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Vote Republican - Vote morally correct!)
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To: bobbdobbs
A common snowflake proves that order can arise from the random. That information can be recorded.
What indeed is DNA. It is the complex arisen from the random and a record of the history of its formation.

I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm saying. There's nothing random about the behavior of water molecules, snowflakes or anything else. You've assigned a label of "random" because you don't want to accept that God designed each and everything in our universe to behave and react in certain ways.

Imagine that I wrote a computer program. The function of this computer program is to replace the letter "A" in a sentence with the letter "E". If you did not know what the purpose of the program was and why designed it that way then you would assume that the computer was randomly replacing "A"'s with "E"'s.

In the same way you look at the motion of water molecules and assume that their motion is random because you don't understand the parameters and the purpose of the "program" for water molecules.

If you wanted to find out *why* your computer was replacing A's with E's then you could analyze the program and figure out exactly what it was doing...but you still wouldn't know *why* it was designed to do that. To find that out you HAVE to ask the creator of the program.

212 posted on 05/06/2005 11:12:16 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: GSHastings
Its not based upon faith. Are you out of you mind? Its based on theory derived out of logic, reason and empirical evidence that we got very very lucky.

Interestingly enough, the theory rests upon nothing that is actually known. There is quite a lot known about gravity according the the Theory of Gravity. While the Theory of Electromagnetism isn't perfect (dual nature particle and waveform), a lot about light is known about how it behaves. In contrast, about evolution nothing is actually known. Oh, sure there is speculation that somthing is going on, but how that something is occuring nobody knows.

As I've mentioned before, there's an infinite difference between theories about physical laws of the universe that don't change (or the rate of change itself is a physical law) and what is tautologically touted as the Theory of Evolution As Fact.

213 posted on 05/06/2005 11:15:31 PM PDT by raygun
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To: raygun

The Bible says every hair on our head is numbered, i.e., DNA.


214 posted on 05/06/2005 11:21:20 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Vote Republican - Vote morally correct!)
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To: BipolarBob
BipolarBob,

Your tagline absolutely rocks!

The primordial soup coded and manufactured the just right media for life and animated it on the one planet with life sustaining abilities?

I've seen reports of late that astronomers have detected strong evidence of some rather complex organic molecules in vast clouds of matter in nebulae. I think most of us would be suprised at the amount of complexity that can arise in what is essentially Brownian motion within such a cloud of the raw stuff of the universe. How complex such stuff can get is probably something we'll have to go find out for ourselves if we survive the next couple of millenia as a race.

That said, I really am rather pleased for the most part that the theory of Intellegent Design is getting a hard look by folks. It pretty much agrees with the way I've looked at the universe itself and the genesis of life itself for as long as I can remember. I'm not particularly sure which is the greater miracle; Man being formed whole in an instant of creation, or the shepherding that would appear to be necessary for our Maker to have allowed us to progress from lower to more advanced forms.

Either way, it's wonderful, and I'm happy to be here. :-)

I'd be interested in looking into some of the thoughts these days in information theory that work for/against both Darwinian and ID theories. It seems to me that information theory is an interesting way of looking at the problem.

One thing I didn't notice in the article was somemthing related that I've been extremely fascinated by for a while now, and that is fractal geometry. Most living things and natural processes seem to have a fractal nature to them. The more I learn about DNA, the more I think that the Lord uses some awesome fractal compression algorithms to store as much data as is possible in the smallest possible space.

I have a copy of the Human Genome project on disk here, and it is a huge amount of data. Even zipped, the data is freaking huge. I would imagine that you could compress the data a heck of a lot more if you were able to take advantage of the fact that to represent the four possible values you only need 2 bits of information. i.e, 00=A 01=T 10=G 11=C. I would imagine that someone has taken the time to calculate the absolute amount of information contained in the human genome. To me, that would be in interesting tidbit of information to know.

Sorry. i think my nerdiness is showing, so I'll stop now. :-)

215 posted on 05/06/2005 11:23:53 PM PDT by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies!)
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To: DouglasKC

Excellent article...


216 posted on 05/06/2005 11:24:00 PM PDT by dmanLA
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To: GSHastings
....Science is taking you step by step along the path to showing you that evolution could not possibly be the explanation....

I am curious, do you think that science will arrive at an explanation? If so would you accept that explanation even if it turns out, as I suspect, to be a mutated version of Darwins' simplistic explanation of evolution with a whole set of heuristics to account for every turn in the path (much like a long complicated string theory encompassing everything they have been able to piece together)?

As an example of precedent, most of Aristotles' ideas were eventually proven to be wrong, but they at least provided a starting point to begin the search. Darwin may very well hold the same distinction at some point.

Your line of reasoning begs the question, "is it possible for science to prove an intelligent design?" (I suppose it might be possible using Sherlock Holmes type logic. One could make the case that once you have ruled everything else out, the only thing left must be the answer)
217 posted on 05/06/2005 11:47:48 PM PDT by contemplator
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To: raygun
I must admit to not understanding what point you are trying to make. I haven't read all of you posts. So, I'll start with the full paragraph of yours, that I was responding to.

Look, flipping a nickle 1000 times in a row and coming up heads is monumentally improbable, but if it happens then the possibility of that happening is 100%. Now for that to happen again would be even more remote of a probability, but if it does happen again, the possibility of it happening again would be 100%. Just because each of the components and physical constants of the universe in and of themselves have a higly improbable likelyhood of occuring, the fact they they all did simultaneously assemeble together into this universe means that the possibility of a universe constructed in the way it is is 100%.

The argument can be made that there are several physical constants which have to be precisely what they are, and that very tiny deviations in any one of them would make the physical universe as we know it impossible, and hence we wouldn't be here to wonder about it.

The counter argument often proposed, and which I assumed you were making in the paragraph above, is that the universe is here, and we are wondering about it. Therefore, the "possibility" of all of those physical constants being exactly the way they are, is 100%.

That argument doesn't hold water.

The point is this. If physical constants could have a nearly infinite range of values, then the likelyhood that they would all be precisely as they are, is very small. (1000 x 2 heads on your nickel flip is much more likely). There arelimitless combinatitions that won't work, and one (so far as we know) extremely unlikely combination of things that does work.

So, either there is a very large number of universes, making it more likely that a very improbable convergence could occur, or

Our universe won the mother of all lotteries, or

Our universe is the product of intelligent design.

Assuming an infinite number of universes = faith. Infinity is only a concept, and so far as we know, there is nothing that exists in an infinite amount.

Assuming the mother of all lotteries = faith. We see the lottery being won. But the odds on this one are so small, that it would be concidered an impossibility if the topic were anything else.

Assuming Intelligent design = faith. BUT, we see a HUGE amount of provable intelligence and design in the world around us. Intelligent Design most certainly exists, in great abundance.

Of the three, which Faith is the most reasonable?

218 posted on 05/07/2005 12:06:34 AM PDT by GSHastings
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To: bobbdobbs
Snowflakes do not cause the philosophical problem that you allege for me. Because I know what the difference is between a snowflake and an "irreducibly complex organism". Neither is there any information contained within snowflakes. It is not the information within a snowflake that diffracts a light beam into a rainbow (it is its physical geometric lattice that does that in conjunction to the physical characteristics of light). Neither is there information within the lightbeam that is extracted via diffraction grating. However, a lightbeam can be modulated to carry information, that can be discerned through the use of a diffraction grating. Nevertheless, evolution is indeed just that: a philosophy and not fact however disguised it may be as science in the guise of theory. Evolution is a philosophy whereby naturalistic means for the origin of species is assumed to be true, as opposed to supernatural means of creation by that of a deity. Evolution attempts to clothe itself in the guise of science, when in fact it is founded entirely upon history. The two are mutually exclusive. History is not science. While facts can be logically determined from historical sources, such facts can not be scientifically proven. You can not scientifically prove to me that you got up yesterday. The only way that you can scientifically prove that is through observation and expirimentation, and that can't be done.

On the other hand, creationism has no qualms with physical laws, or the natural order of things that science concerns itself with (through observation, establishment of models to predict, and construction of experiments to assess how accurate the predictions are). Creaionism concedes that these things indeed are. BUT IT DOES insist that the origin of these things are of a theistic (or supernatural) origin. The two are mutually exclusive, although both are philophies and essentially based on faith, science itself is not (and can not be based on faith as principles derived by science must be known).

The ability of a living organism to grow, react and reproduce is not dependent upon the properties of the molecules involved. A living cell is a co-ordinated set of non-living molecules. The life in a cell is derived from its organization. What is life? It is the quality of something with a metabolism, growth, responds to stimulation and reproduces. According to these definitions fire is not alive, and neither are crystals. The kind of organization that is found in life is neither found in snowflakes nor pebbles in a creek bed. The organization found in snowflakes is purely mechanistic. In spontaneous systems such as snowflakes, the properties of the whole are completely derived from the components. Created systems in contrast have properties imposed from the outside that confer new properties on the parts, properties that the parts of the system do not and can not develop on their own. A snowflake is an excellent example of time, chance and natural process that produce a system whose internal order is internally determined.

A snowflake's shape reflects the internal order of the water molecules. Water molecules in the solid state, such as in ice and snow, form weak bonds (called hydrogen bonds) with one another. These ordered arrangements result in the symmetrical, hexagonal shape of the snowflake. During crystallization, the water molecules align themselves to maximize attractive forces and minimize repulsive forces. Consequently, water molecules arrange themselves in predetermined spaces and in a specific arrangement. Water molecules simply arrange themselves to fit the spaces and maintain symmetry.

No two snowflakes are exactly identical, down to the precise number of water molecules, spin of electrons, isotope abundance of hydrogen and oxygen, etc. On the other hand, it is possible for two snowflakes to look exactly alike and any given snowflake probably has had a good match at some point in history. Since so many factors affect the structure of a snowflake and since a snowflake's structure is constantly changing in response to environmental conditions, it is improbable that anyone would ever see two identical snowflakes in all of time anywhere.

219 posted on 05/07/2005 12:23:39 AM PDT by raygun
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To: DouglasKC
Assuming that the big bang theory is a legitimate model than how does science scientifically prove anything occurred before the physical universe came into creation?

Well, I believe Stephen Hawkings answered that particular question something along these lines...
It is pointless to even speculate about what came before the BB, because nothing that happened before that event could have any bearing upon what happened after it. There could well have been some really interesting things going on before the singularity (or whatever it was) expanded into the universe we see, but it doesn't matter because it just doesn't matter.

I think that's one reason Hawkings and Pope John Paul got along. The Pope said you shouldn't inquire about what was before the big bang, and Hawkings said "sure thing. It doesn't matter anyway." :-)

220 posted on 05/07/2005 12:26:58 AM PDT by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies!)
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