Mid-Western researchers ponder hydrogen

Hydrogen Use ^

[Aaron_A]

Several universities and research groups in the American Mid-West hope to one day become a leading source of hydrogen fuel. South Dakota State University, University of North Dakota and the University of Minnesota are working on different projects under the auspices of the Upper Midwest Hydrogen Initiative. There is no abundant natural source of pure hydrogen, so it must be produced from other sources and that is where the Midwest hopes to cash in with its supplies of ethanol, wind energy, and farm waste.

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[combat_boots]

Midwestern? Well, there's always methane. ;>

[RightWhale]

Where is the hydrogen now? All chemically bound, mostly in water and the rest in gas/oil. Right? That's where we have to go to get some free to use as fuel.

[inquest]

Several universities and research groups in the American Mid-West hope to one day become a leading source of hydrogen fuel.

The researchers themselves want to become a source of hydrogen? Do I want to be standing near them when this happens?

[Husker24]

University of Minnesota researchers are working on ways to turn ethanol into hydrogen inside a car's engine, thus eliminating the need to store compressed volatile hydrogen gas.

Why not just skip the middle man and run it on Ethanol?

[delacoert]

Why not just skip the middle man and run it on Ethanol?

Ethanol Fuels: Energy Balance, Economics,and Environmental Impacts are Negative

[Toddsterpatriot]

University of Minnesota researchers are working on ways to turn ethanol into hydrogen inside a car's engine, thus eliminating the need to store compressed volatile hydrogen gas.

And they'd take the released carbon dioxide and put it where?

[Keith in Iowa]

>>>Ethanol Fuels: Energy Balance, Economics,and Environmental Impacts are Negative

Tell me - who funds the group that wrote that report?

[Lessismore]

General Motors seems to be the big backer of hydrogen fuel cells.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/

But with their bond rating cut to junk, they will probably go bankrupt before making a transition to hydrogen.

[delacoert]

who funds the group that wrote that report?

You got it backwards. The question is, "who funds the groups that pitch ethanol as another energy miracle?"

[Keith in Iowa]

Follow the money on both sides of the issue. The truth lies somewhere in between.

[GSlob]

"The researchers themselves want to become a source of hydrogen? Do I want to be standing near them when this happens?"
I suggest that you might wish to, but always holding a lit cigar (or cigarette). You do not need to be smoking it, just keep it lit- and you might be treated to quite a sight, better than July 4 fireworks.

[John Will]

Ethanol could be a useful product of the waste that is not going towards animals.

[delacoert]

I have a difficult time finding clear and complete cost analyses on ethanol production from agricultural waste. Using the search string, '"cost of ethanol production" from "agricultural waste",' I found the following:

Even for feedstocks in the $30–$40/dry ton range (similar to many of the straws and other agriculture wastes), the cost of ethanol production is in the range of $1.50 to $1.60 per gallon which is not economical under today’s market conditions without substantial subsidies. Therefore, near-term plants should focus on biomass with negative or very low cost.

from FEASIBILITY OF PRODUCING ETHANOL FROM BIOMASS IN NORTHEASTERN NORTH DAKOTA AND NORTHWESTERN MINNESOTA, Section 5.3 Operating Costs, Report 2000-EERC-10-01, Energy & Environmental Research Center, University of North Dakota, May 2001.

This is a 5+ year old analysis. The prices will have changed, but the conclusion is probably still correct.

[farmfriend]

Rights, farms, environment ping.
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I don't get offended if you want to be removed.

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[Carry_Okie]

Tell me - who funds the group that wrote that report?

Oil companies love ethanol. They get to sell diesel to produce and transport the raw feedstock, and then get to sell natural gas to produce the ethanol. Mileage in use goes down and that means more gasoline sales too.

[o_zarkman44]

carbon dioxide is consumed by plants and recycled into oxygen. Not a problem.

[Toddsterpatriot]

carbon dioxide is consumed by plants and recycled into oxygen.

Duh. Then why bother with turning hydrocarbons into hydrogen? Just burn the hydrocarbon. That's more energy efficient anyway.

[wita]

I'm not against a search for more and cheaper energy sources, however, under present conditions, there is nothing cheaper and more available than oil and gas. Develop them to the max before we spend time and energy on unknown or less than efficient sources requiring government subsidies to be even considered viable in a political sense, much less physically.

Hydrogen has been a scam of the first order by those who are expert in the paper process for government grant money. Ethanol is pretty close to the same thing only it has the backing of quite a number of mid state politicians for and in behalf of corn producers.

I don't have an argument with corn producers only with the subsidies necessary to make the product profitable. Without the subsidies it would be a dead issue and there would only be sufficient ethanol plants to produce fuel for race cars, and I can't remember why we have ethanol powered race cars, and other ethanol uses besides an additive to gasoline.