Oregon unborn victims bill loses Catholic Church backing over death penalty

Catholic News Service ^ | 5/18/2005

[Salvation]

Oregon House of Representatives

Oregon State Senate

[Salvation]

**The Catholic church in Oregon has its priorities badly misplaced.**

Sadly, yes. Life needs to be the priority.

[pissant]

Probably

[trisham]

bttt

[ArrogantBustard]

They're a bunch of panty-waist morons ...

[Mrs. Don-o]

As a faithful Catholic, I am within my competence to say that the Oregon Bishops in this case are quite wrong: they need to defend children who are not yet born, who at present have less protection than rare molluscs and endangered rodents. Pass this bill, which is a step toward justice plain and simple: LATER worry about the death penalty if it ever comes up in this type of situation.

I'm an opponent of the death penalty too, butI fully recognize (as the Catholic Church recognizes) that it is a quite different matter and requires a different line of moral reasoning, than abortion.

Abortion is always a sin and a crime in God's eyes, because it is always a great moral wrong to deliberately kill an innocent human being (whether it is done by euthanasia, terrorism against civilians, infanticide, WMD's, abortion, a bomb, or a baseball bat.) The principal is about as absolute as you can get: you must never deliberately destroy an innocent life.

In the matter of war and capital punishment you are not dealing with the inncent, but with aggressors. When the State, after fair trial or due process --- and as a matter of protecting the security of the community --- imposes the death penalty, that is not murder.

But the Church also teaches the possibility of real repentance. From the beginning, from Cain the first murderer, right down through King David and Saul (Paul) of Tarsus, it was illustrated that God wants neither the death nor the damnation of the evildoer: God wants repentant, broken hearts; restitution; atonement; redemption.

Seen from this point of view, we can preserve the life of the guilty person, because we don't know what further use God might have for this person while he is still on earth. We are motivated to give this person as much time as we can, to repent.

That would mean that,IF (big "IF") society's security can be adequately protected by giving the murdere a life sentence with no possibility of parole, then that's in greater conformity to the will of God.

Maybe the Bishops should concentrate for a season on teaching the Catechism. Or learning it themselves!

I have often thought that if the life-sentenced murderer then re-offends WHILE SERVING HIS LIFE SENTENCE (e.g. if he assaults another inmate, or a guard) he is demonstrating that he is still a violent securty risk even in jail --- and thus he is in a sense choosing his own execution.

[PLK]

You cannot distinguish between an innocent life, and a guilty one? That seems to be the Catholic Church's 'reasoning' here.

Yes, I can. I'm saying I do not agree with the Church's rationale in this instance.

[DBeers]

Oregon Catholic Conference????? What is IT? Who is IT??? I assume it is a laity based nothing with no authority no nothing etcetera... Is it a diminished subunit of the meaningless USCCB? LOL

[sinkspur]

State Catholic Conferences operate under the guidance and direction of all the bishops in the State. That means Vlazny, Vasa, and other Oregon bishops had to approve of this.

[Frank Sheed]

Death Penalty USA
* Number of executions in 2001: 66
http://www.westernprisonproject.org/PrisonIndex/Section_1/DeathPenalty.html

Abortions USA
*700,000 in 2001
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200301/CUL20030114b.html

I can see where this would present a real moral dilemma for the Bishops in Oregon what with almost 70 felons killed in 2001.

Roe v. Wade. 45 million and still counting.

Frank

[sinkspur]

Does this group have any real authority to speak for the Church, or are they like the miguided "Catholics for Choice" group?

Insofar as the Oregon Catholic Conference includes the bishops of Oregon, it speaks for the Catholic Church in Oregon.

[joyce11111]

Sometimes, I cannot bear to read the news. And, this is an example.

[PLK]

RE: post #30. Thank you.

[lainde]

bttt

[lainde]

Sometimes, I cannot bear to read the news. And, this is an example.

Joyce...You express my feelings perfectly. Over the past two weeks I've retreated to watching HGTV and Frank Capra movies. Watching and reading the news has been like taking a daily beating in an insane asylum!

[narses]

With these words, Pope Benedict XVI has shredded the Seamless Garment:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Oregon falls out of unity with Rome. Shocking.

[Frank Sheed]

----Sigh. This sort of thing is why I'm content to be a "lapsed" Catholic. I love the Church, defend it to my ability, and think it is in general a strong force for Good in this world, but I remain prideful enough to think that sometimes the Church's leadership is full of beans.----

So very sorry you feel this way. Christ did design the Church this way with full (Divine, in fact) knowledge of the human element contained therein. It IS His Mystical Body and somehow manages to stumble through since it is of HIM. When Napoleon once threatened to destroy the Church, an Italian Cardinal replied, "Be my guest, Emperor. We Catholics have tried for nearly 1780 years to no avail."

I wish you'd read "Theology and Sanity" by the (real) Frank Sheed and pay special attention to the human element and its role in Christ's Church near the end of the book. It may give you an explanation as to why your excuse is not a good one. We are of Christ by design. Warts and all.

Frank

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote:

"Insofar as the Oregon Catholic Conference includes the bishops of Oregon, it speaks for the Catholic Church in Oregon."

This is true, but please don't leave the impression that it speaks AUTHORITATIVELY for the Catholic Church.

A Bishops' Conference, for one thing, has no canonical authority in itself: none whatsoever. (Individual bishops have canonical auhority within their diocese.)

Plus, while the individual bishop has a very important role in teaching AUTHORITATIVELY on faith and morals, and governs his diocese in terms of ecclesiastical discipline, the bishop has no particular authorityu when it comes to prudential judgments, which is what their position on this legislation comes down to.

The Church has never taught that support for capital punishment per se is a sin. And here, the proposed legislation didn't even mention capital punisment; it's that c.p. opponents wanted an amendment specifically excluding it.

This is a "prudential judgment" where the LAITY have the competence to craft the best law possible. The Oregon Bishops are out of their league.

[HamiltonJay]

Catholicism does not have a stand against the Death Penalty... I don't know how certain folks in the church have gotten this ludicrous and false idea.

PJPII Never ever said the death penalty was immorral, nor has any Pope. They have criticized the system under which it is applied, but capital punishment is NOT in conflict with the Catholic faith.

Activist leftists who claim to be Catholics just drive me nuts.