What happens after North Korea falls? - (one expert predicts the fall before end of '05)

US NEWS.COM ^ | MAY 26, 2005 | MICHAEL BARONE

[Random Nonsense]

I really can't wait for a McSaintBernard Burger. :)

[Actually_in_Tokyo]

Very interesting.

[John Valentine]

Like students in the United States, students here in Korea imbibe socialist, anti-American propaganda from an early age. It was these callow, inexperienced, know-it-all, pampered, protected, under 25s that elected this disaster of a President Roh Moo-Hyun, much to the horror of their elders.

Since his election Roh Moo-hyun has made policy mistake heaped on policy disaster, to the point now where is popularity has plummeted to about 22%.

Still, he refuses to correct his course, as Socialists are always reluctant to do. As is said, "Don't adjust your dial, reality is at fault."

But he has been summoned to Washington, where as his reward for as 48 hour trip; hours on end cooped up in an airplane, Roh will get 30 minutes with President Bush. Adjusted for translation time, he will get 15 minutes of actual conversation. Just long enough for President Bush to explain to him the facts of his immediate future political life.

I suspect it is not for nothing that F-117s are being deployed here.

It is my personal opinion that the the whatever will hit the fan this summer.

[Red Sea Swimmer]

Great photo.

Nothing better than a good burger, although I think I would have to fast for a week to prepare myslef for that feast. I may need to invest in a crash helmet aswell.

P.S. That guy looks like he is having a lot of fun. I wonder how long the burger took to cook ?

[pfony1]

Simply BRILLIANT! Now, I have to read a some more of Polybus' contribiutions to our common civilization.

In a way, Polybus has explained why children of priviledge, such as Senators Kerry, Dodd, Kennedy and Clinton are working so hard to overthrow American values.

I certainly hope someone learns how to convert self-pride into patriotism -- before it is too late.

[blam]

"I think you have it. The problems Germany had in assimilating the GDR will look like child's play compared to what South Korea will have to deal with."

The South, by itself, cannot assimilate the north. Regardless, many , many will die.

[Oatka]

The North Koreans broke their word, but some foreign policy experts argue that a similar agreement is the best we can get from the six-party North Korea talks and should be accepted as at least a way of buying time.

Buying Time? For what? This is probably the same crowd that said we'd have to "live with" the Soviet Union as they were too powerful to destroy and snickered at Reagan's "evil empire" epithet. On a lesser scale, their like-minded brethren were telling New Yorkers they have to "live with" the Squegee men as there were too many. These liberals always have an excuse as to why we should not face the bad guys down. Craven cowards, one and all.

The "before the end of 2005" prediction might be too optimistic, but we'll never know unless we try. So many of these omnipotent regimes, as pointed out, crack at the most unexpected moments. This is what will probably play out, and in a perverse sense, I suspect the South Koreans don't want that to happen because of the lessening of their standard of living the reunification will entail. No doubt they will rediscover the U.S. is not so bad at all and demand aid and assistance in that process.

[citizencon]

I don't think the students themselves know why they are rioting against the US. On the surface, it's misguided nationalism.

[Fee]

Nationalism blinds S Korean youths. But when the North collapses and the conscript S Korean army moves north to restablish order and liberate prisoners in the concentration camps, then they will know that the US was right. I think their anger will turn against the Chinese for allowing the murderous regime to last so long for their own strategic interests at the cost of the lives of the Koreans in the north. What the Chinese did to the NK people is no different then what the Imperial Japanese did to the Koreans - murder them. China will reap what she sowed.

[CHARLITE]

"I assume it will rejoin south korea after the fall, and bankrupt the government."

The author correctly surmises that the fall and presumed "reunification" with the south, will cause a far worse economic drain on the new, unified Korea, than the crippled economy of E. Germany caused when the Berlin Wall fell.

....and BTW, once American troops are gone, and the now-rioting S. Korean students are faced with raw reality, who will be the target(s) of their new rioting then?

America?.......again?.........for not having stuck around to clean things up after "America" caused the wretched refuse yearning to be free in N. Korea to come stumbling and staggering down into the prosperous south, looking for "a better life?"

...........and, oh.........I have to tell you how much I LOVE "Righty_McRight" !!! Key-yewt name!

Char

[CHARLITE]

"They are following the cycle of "Anacyclosis" from slavery to freedom and back to slavery which the historian Polybius described over 2,000 years ago."

Your posted reply is magnificent; - truly outstanding. Thank you very much for such an erudite contribution to our attempts to comprehend the rampant anti-Americanism in a country all the way around the world, for which so much American blood has been sacrificed.

I really appreciate your historical reference. There really isn't anything new under the sun. Is there? It is all cyclical, it seems.

BTW, what part of the "cyclical" theory (or rhythm) does the current militant Islam signify? One could say that they are analagous to the nordic and slavic barbarians which invaded and finally defeated the Roman Empire, (as well as the Iberian peninsula) but in my mind, they are worse.

Your thoughts?

Thanks again.

Char

[jec41]

If someone could tell me why South Korean students are rioting against America, who has been saving their sorry rear ends for a half century, I would appreciate your comments on this outrageous ingratitude.


The same reason our own students rioted against us during Vietnam and are protesting so hard now. Socialism and liberalism and indoctrination by Universities.

[CHARLITE]

"The same reason our own students rioted against us during Vietnam and are protesting so hard now. Socialism and liberalism and indoctrination by Universities."

......which is why liberalism in universities should be confronted, challenged and eliminated, IMO. I support David Horowitz and Ann Coulter 100%, in their efforts to do exactly that.

Thanks for such a simple answer. You're right, of course.

Char :)

[Hop A Long Cassidy]

Great post, but by chance did Polybius crib Plato's Republic, Book VIII?

Plato lived about 200 years earlier than Polybius. His famous work was The Republic and was often quoted or adapted by other Greek writers.

I recall Plato's Republic as being the source of:

Democracy -> Anarchy -> Dictatorship -> Oligarchy -> Democracy

Here's some interesting posts on Polybius and Plato:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius
203 bc - 120 bc Greek historian famous for his book called The Histories, or The Rise of the Roman Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
427 bc - 347 bc, immensely influential classical Greek philosopher, student of Socrates, teacher of Aristotle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_%28Plato%29
The Republic - Plato dialog

Here's an English text version of The Republic at gutenberg.org (just search for 'VIII' to read the section):
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext98/repub11.txt

Hoppy

[Polybius]

Simply BRILLIANT! Now, I have to read a some more of Polybius' contribiutions to our common civilization.

I was impressed with him too, not only for his historical ducumentation but for his wisdom and insight. That is why I chose his name as my FR screename.

His discussion of the anacyclosis historical pattern lead him to a discussion of how that cycle had been broken (at least in the time of his writing and for another century) by the concept of the Balance of Power in the Constitution of the Roman Republic.

The Founding Fathers were familiar with his work ( his Histories were mentioned in The Federalist Papers No. 63 ) and there is therefore every reason to believe that his description of the system of checks and balances in the Roman Republic's Constitution influenced the creation of a system of checks and balances in the U.S. Constitution.

[Polybius]

Great post, but by chance did Polybius crib Plato's Republic, Book VIII? Plato lived about 200 years earlier than Polybius. His famous work was The Republic and was often quoted or adapted by other Greek writers. I recall Plato's Republic as being the source of: Democracy -> Anarchy -> Dictatorship -> Oligarchy -> Democracy

Plato wrote about the cycle as did Cicero after Polybius.

Polybius' great contribution was to suggest that the cycle could be broken by a system of checks and balances as found in the Roman Republic's Constitution. That, in turn, may very well have influenced the Founding Fathers to attempt to create a system of checks and balances in our own Constitution.

[NHAntiMassRedRebel]

Two words: SKI PYONGYANG!

hahaha

[slowpipe]

I believe South Koreans resent the U.S. because they need
and use our money.

Also, student leftism is rampant.

I was over there once.

We are the "Ugly Americans" IMHO.

[Polybius]

BTW, what part of the "cyclical" theory (or rhythm) does the current militant Islam signify? One could say that they are analagous to the nordic and slavic barbarians which invaded and finally defeated the Roman Empire, (as well as the Iberian peninsula) but in my mind, they are worse. Your thoughts?

It must be remember that the anacyclosis cycle describes how a democratic society destroys itself.

Even the most noble and brave society can fall prey to an outside military power greater than its own.

In radical Islamic countries such as Iran, the radical mullahs would qualify as a theocratic oligarchy. Before them, came the Dictatorship of the Shah.

It must also be remembered that Polybius was describing relatively civilized Greek and Roman societies who had actually gotten to the "Democracy" stage.

In more primitive societies, the cycle of Anarchy -> Dictatorship -> Oligarchy -> Democracy would skip Democracy altogether and simply be Anarchy -> Dictatorship -> Oligarchy -> Anarchy -> Dictatorship -> Oligarchy.

[A CA Guy]

We can send them all our illegal aliens to help rebuild their country and do the gardening.