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FR Poll Thread: "The Patriot Act Should be..."
Free Republic ^ | 6-13-2005 | DTogo

Posted on 06/13/2005 10:21:02 AM PDT by DTogo

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To: Lazamataz

Agreed. It appears that many people find Freedom freightening. It's the age-old struggle, thus the admonishment "eternal vigilance"!


51 posted on 06/13/2005 10:56:47 AM PDT by PaRebel (Self Defense: an unalienable right!)
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To: DTogo

I'm sure that Gary Hart and Andrew Young do have a sequel to their Patriot Act. President Rodham may have Attorney General Obama modernize the list of terrorist organizations though.


52 posted on 06/13/2005 10:56:49 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: crispy78

And no matter what happens, I think that it should be reviewed every 4-5 years.


53 posted on 06/13/2005 10:58:06 AM PDT by crispy78
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To: Lazamataz; phoenix_004
Speaking of Hitler, Germany learned the hard way.

Germany now protects its citizens from government and other prying so thoroughly, that even reverse phone directories are illegal.
54 posted on 06/13/2005 10:58:18 AM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: phoenix_004
> Permanent...Threat of islamic terrorism is real and here to stay!!!! We have no option but to defend america and in doing so if we have to forgo some rights then so be it.

You do that by going to where THEY are and turning them into baconburgers. You don't F up our country!

Police state is not an option.
55 posted on 06/13/2005 10:58:19 AM PDT by Rate_Determining_Step (US Military - Draining the Swamp of Terrorism since 2001!)
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To: DTogo

I voted 'dropped' because the Patriot Act is a legacy of the Clinton presidency and tramples underfoot our Bill of Rights.


56 posted on 06/13/2005 10:58:41 AM PDT by PresbyRev (There is no god named Allah and Mohammed was a false prophet.)
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To: april15Bendovr

Sorry, an America with the Bill of Rights curtailed for any reason is not America. And you are much too trusting of government (probably because the R party runs it.) Would you have supported this measure from a Janet Reno justice department? Also, your argument is purely an emotional one. That's how this reactionary measure got passed in the first place.


57 posted on 06/13/2005 10:58:58 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: DTogo
Freedom of the press is surely overrated, and nobody should be able to speak their minds... -dtogo


58 posted on 06/13/2005 10:59:18 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
President Rodham may have Attorney General Obama modernize the list of terrorist organizations though.

Couldn't you just imagine how they would tweak it to fit their agendas?

Scary thought...very scary thought.

59 posted on 06/13/2005 10:59:29 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: Dan from Michigan
How is the patriot act defending us against Islamic terrorism. Especially when our borders are not guarded.

Yeah, but when the Islamic terrorists who come over the border with Mexico go to a library, we'll nab 'em there, but good! /sarcasm.

I voted to trim it. If the Bush Admin wants to keep the various provisions, have them go over how those provisions have been used, in closed session with Congress if necessary. I want to see which ones have been effective, which ones haven't been used much, and which ones have been abused.

60 posted on 06/13/2005 10:59:37 AM PDT by dirtboy (Drool overflowed my buffer...)
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To: Age of Reason
Germany now protects its citizens from government and other prying so thoroughly, that even reverse phone directories are illegal.

I have a German friend who is shocked at the police state we now live in, in America.

The fact that a citizen of the birthplace of Nazism can be shocked like that, is shocking.

61 posted on 06/13/2005 11:00:33 AM PDT by Lazamataz (The Republican Party is the France of politics.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
Do you trust John Kerry, Bill Klinton(who pushed for his own Patriot Act over the drug war), Janet Reno, Ted Kennedy, Dianne Feinstein, Charles Schumer, or Jimmy Carter with this power?

By their words and actions, they prefer that these people have such power than that they do not. Of course, Patriot Act supporters want President Rodhan to wield such power.

62 posted on 06/13/2005 11:00:41 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: kidd
I cannot understand why anyone would want a wartime act made "Permanent".

The same people who want the Telephone Tax (Spanish American War) and the Income Tax (WWI) made permanent.

63 posted on 06/13/2005 11:05:50 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: mysterio
I wonder how many people are reacting emotionally to the Patriot act thinking it would allow authorities to come in their house and take their marijuana stash?

Makes me wonder why so many libertarians are against it?
64 posted on 06/13/2005 11:06:55 AM PDT by april15Bendovr
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To: pbrown
I voted to cut it back. Waaaaaay back would be my choice. I think the Feds or and lawful authority should be able to ask you what country you are from and then ask you to provide proof of that.

I disagree with the Feds being able to sneak into someones home and plant bugs without a warrant. I am not involved in crime so I don't really care if they want to know what my financial status is but I do object to private businesses having to follow guidelines that in effect make them a part of the criminal justice system. If my name comes up in an investigation that's when they should be able to quickly determine if I am doing something illegal, not because a bank clerk turns me in for making multiple deposits or withdrawls.

I disagree with the Feds having the authority to hold someone without charges and not being required to notify their relatives that the person is held. Either we have the evidence or we don't that the person is a threat to the US or we don't. Arrest and charge, try and convict, or let them go.

Profiling should be legal in every investigation to determine in there is sufficient evidence to charge someone. If that occurs because you wear a turbin or your skin is lighter or darker than mine, tough shit. That's life. If a majority of whatever race commits particular crimes then there is a shadow cast upon everyone of that race. Ten years of good parenting will correct the situation not fifty years of whining.
65 posted on 06/13/2005 11:07:00 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: april15Bendovr
Makes me wonder why so many libertarians are against it?

Maybe because the root word of libertarian is liberty?

66 posted on 06/13/2005 11:09:30 AM PDT by rattrap
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To: DTogo

I said eliminate it. We already have far too much government intrusion in our life.

Some will say "If you don't do anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about." Imagine Hillary becoming presindent and deciding what is right & wrong. It basically chews up the Constitution, Bill of Rights etc. and spits it out into a government issued ID card.


67 posted on 06/13/2005 11:10:16 AM PDT by Fierce Allegiance (This is not your granddaddy's America...)
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To: kenth
It all depends on what the government decides is "wrong".

Exactly what I was going to say when I saw that line.

68 posted on 06/13/2005 11:12:55 AM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: april15Bendovr

I wonder how many people would change their opinion on smoking in bed if there was going to be a fire that night because they fell asleep hold a lit cigarette.

Quality of life is what is important, not the length of it.


69 posted on 06/13/2005 11:13:52 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: crispy78

And no matter what happens, I think that it should be reviewed by the citizens with a vote every 4-5 years.


70 posted on 06/13/2005 11:15:13 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: B4Ranch
Profiling should be legal in every investigation to determine in there is sufficient evidence to charge someone.

Profiling is a must. You could bet if little white haired chriatian women had flown those planes into the buildings...those little grannys will be pulled out of line faster than you could spit. But, because it is muslims...profiling is not acceptable.

71 posted on 06/13/2005 11:15:52 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: DTogo

Unless the feds can figure out how to cover the basics like protecting our borders and profiling middle eastern males they can sh!tcan the whole thing.


72 posted on 06/13/2005 11:16:46 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (OUT OF ORDER)
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To: pbrown

CHRISTIAN...sorry


73 posted on 06/13/2005 11:17:04 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: dirtboy

Haha, you expect the gov't to admit they abused the citizens. Sure maybe in 2599 they will.


74 posted on 06/13/2005 11:18:05 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: DTogo

Expanded but still with a need to vote on it every year to keep it going.

I still believe President Bush screwed this whole thing up when on Sept11, he did not, Declare War on Syria, Iran and Iraq,( Since they were the top three countries that the State Department had on their terrorist sponsoring list.) declare Martial Law and put US on total WW2 style war footing including draft, give Damascus Tehran and Bagdad 96 hours to evacuate then Nuke one, ..... and oh yeah -CONTROL OUR BORDER IN A TIME OF WAR.

And when Syria and Iran and Iraq had unconditionally surrendered, established new governments that included freedom of Religion - or been utterly destroyed, then we could have lifted Martial Law.

No need for Patriot this or that, I or II.


75 posted on 06/13/2005 11:18:59 AM PDT by TomasUSMC (FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM.)
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To: reagandemocrat
Miller voted for Reagan?
76 posted on 06/13/2005 11:20:04 AM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: april15Bendovr
Ah, another emotional argument. Those gosh darn evil druggie libertarians just want to use their evil drugs, and that's the only reason they don't want us to toss out the Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights contains no exception for drugs or terrorism. If you want your police state, there are two ways to get it.

1. Amend the Constitution.

2. Declare martial law.

That's it. Those are the legal choices. The "patriot" act attempts to amend several amendments without actually passing an amendment. So not only does it give government powers that are strictly forbidden, it also does so illegally.

So I ask you again : do you support this coming from a Janet Reno justice department?
77 posted on 06/13/2005 11:21:50 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: DTogo

What rights have been given up? Most provisions brought terrorism suspects on par with suspected mobsters. Has RICO been abused? Yes. Does that mean we should let terrorists elude police by chancing phones? No.

A lot of the criticism of this Act deliberately leaves out the role of the court in verifying there is good cause to track a suspect. That court has also been abused in the past but the suspected violations occured prior to John Ashcroft's arrival. Could a Hillary administration abuse this? Sure. Without sufficient Congressional oversight they can abduct Cuban boys, incinerate Texas ranchers, sic the IRS on political enemies. We can't give the terrorists an even break just because Her Thighness might get in.

78 posted on 06/13/2005 11:22:56 AM PDT by Dilbert56
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To: Rate_Determining_Step; Lazamataz; PaRebel; Dan from Michigan; Age of Reason


We need the patriot act and this is the reason why...In the words of the president:-

We need to renew the Patriot Act because it strengthens our national security in four important ways. First, we need to renew the critical provisions of the Patriot Act authorize better sharing of information between law enforcement and intelligence. Before the Patriot Act, criminal investigators were separated from intelligence officers by a legal and bureaucratic wall. A federal prosecutor who investigated Osama bin Laden in the 1990s explained the challenge this way: "We could talk to citizens, local police officers, foreign police officers -- we could even talk to al Qaeda members. But there was one group of people we were not permitted to talk to -- the FBI agents across the street from us assigned to parallel intelligence investigations of Osama Bin Laden and al Qaeda. That was a wall."

Finding our enemies in the war on terror is tough enough --law enforcement officers should not be denied vital information their own colleagues already have. The Patriot Act helped tear down this wall, and now law enforcement and intelligence officers are sharing information and working together, and bringing terrorists to justice.

In many terrorism cases, information-sharing has made the difference between success and failure -- and you have an example right here in Columbus, Ohio. Two years ago, a truck driver was charged with providing support to al Qaeda. His capture came after an investigation that relied on the Patriot Act, and on contributions from more than a dozen agencies in the Southern Ohio Joint Terrorism Task Force. And members of that task force are with us today. I want to thank you for your contribution to the safety of America, and you'll understand this story I'm about to tell.

For several years, Iman Faris posed as a law-abiding resident of Columbus. But in 2000, he traveled to Afghanistan and met Osama bin Laden at an al Qaeda training camp. Faris helped the terrorists research airplanes and handle cash and purchase supplies. In 2002, he met Khalid Shaykh Muhammad -- the mastermind of the September the 11th attacks -- and he agreed to take part in an al Qaeda plot to destroy a New York City bridge.

After Faris returned to the United States, federal investigators used the Patriot Act to follow his trail. They used new information-sharing provisions to piece together details about his time in Afghanistan, and his plan to launch an attack on the United States. They used the Patriot Act to discover that Faris had cased possible targets in New York, and that he'd reported his findings to al Qaeda. In the spring of 2003, the FBI confronted Faris, and presented the case they had built against him. The case against him was so strong that Faris chose to cooperate, and he spent the next several weeks telling authorities about his al Qaeda association. Faris pled guilty to the charges against him. And today, instead of planning terror attacks against the American people, Iman Faris is sitting in an American prison.

The agents and prosecutors who used the Patriot Act to put Faris behind bars did superb work, and they know what a difference information-sharing made. Here is what one FBI agent said -- he said, "The Faris case would not have happened without sharing information." That information-sharing was made possible by the Patriot Act. Another investigator on the case said, "We never would have had the lead to begin with." You have proved that good teamwork is critical in protecting America. For the sake of our national security, Congress must not rebuild a wall between law enforcement and intelligence.

Second, we need to renew the critical provisions of the Patriot Act that allow investigators to use the same tools against terrorists that they already use against other criminals. Before the Patriot Act, it was easier to track the phone contacts of a drug dealer than the phone contacts of an enemy operative. Before the Patriot Act, it was easier to get the credit card receipts of a tax cheat than an al Qaeda bank-roller. Before the Patriot Act, agents could use wiretaps to investigate a person committing mail fraud, but not to investigate a foreign terrorist. The Patriot Act corrected all these pointless double standards -- and America is safer as a result.

One tool that has been especially important to law enforcement is called a roving wiretap. Roving wiretaps allow investigators to follow suspects who frequently change their means of communications. These wiretaps must be approved by a judge, and they have been used for years to catch drug dealers and other criminals. Yet, before the Patriot Act, agents investigating terrorists had to get a separate authorization for each phone they wanted to tap. That means terrorists could elude law enforcement by simply purchasing a new cell phone. The Patriot Act fixed the problem by allowing terrorism investigators to use the same wiretaps that were already being using against drug kingpins and mob bosses. The theory here is straightforward: If we have good tools to fight street crime and fraud, law enforcement should have the same tools to fight terrorism.

Third, we need to renew the critical provisions of the Patriot Act that updated the law to meet high-tech threats like computer espionage and cyberterrorism. Before the Patriot Act, Internet providers who notified federal authorities about threatening e-mails ran the risk of getting sued. The Patriot Act modernized the law to protect Internet companies who voluntarily disclose information to save lives.

It's common sense reform, and it's delivered results. In April 2004, a man sent an e-mail to an Islamic center in El Paso, and threatened to burn the mosque to the ground in three days. Before the Patriot Act, the FBI could have spent a week or more waiting for the information they needed. Thanks to the Patriot Act, an Internet provider was able to provide the information quickly and without fear of a lawsuit -- and the FBI arrested the man before he could fulfill his -- fulfill his threat.

Terrorists are using every advantage they can to inflict harm. Terrorists are using every advantage of 21st century technology, and Congress needs to ensure that our law enforcement can use that same advantage, as well.

Finally, we need to renew the critical provisions of the Patriot Act that protect our civil liberties. The Patriot Act was written with clear safeguards to ensure the law is applied fairly. The judicial branch has a strong oversight role. Law enforcement officers need a federal judge's permission to wiretap a foreign terrorist's phone, a federal judge's permission to track his calls, or a federal judge's permission to search his property. Officers must meet strict standards to use any of these tools. And these standards are fully consistent with the Constitution of the U.S.

Congress also oversees the application of the Patriot Act. Congress has recently created a federal board to ensure that the Patriot Act and other laws respect privacy and civil liberties. And I'll soon name five talented Americans to serve on that board. Attorney General Gonzales delivers regular reports on the Patriot Act to the House and the Senate, and the Department of Justice has answered hundreds of questions from members of Congress. One Senator, Dianne Feinstein of California, has worked with civil rights groups to monitor my administration's use of the Patriot Act. Here's what she said: "We've scrubbed the area, and I have no reported abuses." Remember that the next time you hear someone make an unfair criticism of this important, good law. The Patriot Act has not diminished American liberties; the Patriot Act has helped to defend American liberties.

Every day the men and women of law enforcement use the Patriot Act to keep America safe. It's the nature of your job that many of your most important achievements must remain secret. Americans will always be grateful for the risks you take, and for the determination you bring to this high calling. You have done your job. Now those of us in Washington have to do our job. The House and Senate are moving forward with the process to renew the Patriot Act. My message to Congress is clear: The terrorist threats against us will not expire at the end of the year, and neither should the protections of the Patriot Act.


Source :- whitehouse.gov


And finally if you have nothing to hide then you got nothing to fear!!!


79 posted on 06/13/2005 11:22:58 AM PDT by phoenix_004
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To: Fierce Allegiance

The only reason that President Bush looks so good is that we can compare him to what Hillary might do. Don't ever forget that it was this President who sighed the Patriot Act and is asking for number II to be put in place.

I hope that realization will knock some of the glow off of him and help Freepers understand he is not worthy of our adoration in every area. Sure I respect the man but he is a man and he can and does make mistakes just like you and I do.


80 posted on 06/13/2005 11:24:22 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: april15Bendovr
I guess the founding fathers were afraid for their stashes when they wrote the BOR. Your thought process, as an American citizen, it troubling.
81 posted on 06/13/2005 11:24:34 AM PDT by Durus
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To: Lazamataz

I would add, " If you arn't worried about something, your not trying hard enough."


82 posted on 06/13/2005 11:26:07 AM PDT by TomasUSMC (FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM.)
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To: pbrown

There is no reason why someones professed religion should protect them from our legal system or scrutiny by there neighbors.


83 posted on 06/13/2005 11:26:34 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: DTogo; billbears; ValenB4
"The Patriot Act Should be..."

Over 55% of "conservatives" agree: big government is good (as long as the GOP is in control), and true "patriots" will gladly exchange liberty for perceived safety.


84 posted on 06/13/2005 11:27:12 AM PDT by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: B4Ranch

He's a heck of a lot better than the choices we had in the last 2 elections, but he's no conservative. The border policy & out of control spending disgust me.


85 posted on 06/13/2005 11:27:29 AM PDT by Fierce Allegiance (This is not your granddaddy's America...)
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To: Lazamataz

Did your German friend specify any particular things?


86 posted on 06/13/2005 11:27:40 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: april15Bendovr

Now that's gun grabber logic. The same old BS "If it saves one life". The bottom line is that the Patriot Act wouldn't have mattered there.


87 posted on 06/13/2005 11:27:45 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan (June 14 - Defeat DeWine - Vote Tom Brinkman for Congress (OH-2) - http://www.gobrinkman.com)
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To: TomasUSMC
Why declare martial law and a draft? What purpose would either one of those two things serve?

Does the idea of a police state fill you with warm feelings of security?
88 posted on 06/13/2005 11:28:04 AM PDT by Durus
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To: B4Ranch

Someones religion should be of no significance to our government or our neighbors. I'm thinking Halocaust here.


89 posted on 06/13/2005 11:28:45 AM PDT by Fierce Allegiance (This is not your granddaddy's America...)
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To: april15Bendovr

How valuable is life without freedom?


90 posted on 06/13/2005 11:29:14 AM PDT by CSM ( If the government has taken your money, it has fulfilled its Social Security promises. (dufekin))
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To: Dan from Michigan
How is the patriot act defending us against Islamic terrorism.
Especially when our borders are not guarded.




Urrrrrah

EX ACT LEEEEEE!

WHY spend 500 dollars on an alarm system for your car if you always keep the windows all the way down, the door wide open, the convertible top down, and the keys in the ignition?!
91 posted on 06/13/2005 11:30:11 AM PDT by TomasUSMC (FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM.)
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To: DTogo

Dropped...

Not the original design of Fed. Govt....


92 posted on 06/13/2005 11:30:12 AM PDT by dakine
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To: Lazamataz

Big ole dittos, Laz....


93 posted on 06/13/2005 11:30:21 AM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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To: phoenix_004
And finally if you have nothing to hide then you got nothing to fear!!!

Except that I just might have a number of things I'd want to hide - from the government, that is. Wouldn't mean I'm an enemy of the U.S., however.

94 posted on 06/13/2005 11:31:28 AM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: B4Ranch
There is no reason why someones professed religion should protect them from our legal system or scrutiny by there neighbors.

But, being a muslim is all the rage today. It doesn't matter that they flew planes into our buildings. Being muslim today means being given carte blanche.

The Patriot Act takes away from American citizens. We didn't fly planes into buildings yet we are having our rights taken away.

95 posted on 06/13/2005 11:31:37 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: CSM
How valuable is freedom under terrorism?
96 posted on 06/13/2005 11:32:23 AM PDT by april15Bendovr
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To: TomasUSMC
I still believe President Bush screwed this whole thing up when on Sept11, he did not, Declare War on Syria, Iran and Iraq,( Since they were the top three countries that the State Department had on their terrorist sponsoring list.)

Sponsoring terrorists perhaps that were involved in attacks on other nation states, which is none of our business. And why would a 'conservative' such as yourself all the sudden take the word of the State Department as gospel? I remember a year or two ago, the State Department was right up there next to Satan as most hated and couldn't be trusted for anything.

And yet our administration took the word of the CIA and other intelligence agencies to attack a pretty much defenseless nation state on the threat of invisible WMDs. Any condemnation of those groups?

97 posted on 06/13/2005 11:32:46 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: april15Bendovr

So, is that the philosophy that has replaced "Give me liberty or give me death"?


98 posted on 06/13/2005 11:34:58 AM PDT by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: phoenix_004

If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
Dwight D. Eisenhower


99 posted on 06/13/2005 11:35:27 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: april15Bendovr
Considerably moreso than no freedom and no terrorism, not that such a choice is even necessary.
100 posted on 06/13/2005 11:35:38 AM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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