Let not your heart be troubled
Can't wait to see it!
Posted on 06/16/2005 4:18:31 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
Tony Horwitz writes in his review of John Coski's The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem that "few emblems in American history have provoked stronger passions than the battle flag of the vanquished Confederacy. To some it symbolizes honor and independence; to others, hatred and slavery." How can a flag that was never officially recognized as the flag of a country, a flag that never flew over a government building or other facility, become one of America's most divisive symbols. It is the purpose of this brief article to look at the history of the Confederate flag, not to make judgement on what it stands for.
The First National flag, or "Stars and Bars," of the Confederacy flew from 1861 to 1863. When limp, the flag with its alternating red and white bars with a blue field of seven white stars, looks much like the American flag. Due to this similarity, great difficulty arose in distinguishing between the two, especially on the battlefield. Many cases of friendly fire arose. This led to the adoption of the Second National flag, adopted in 1863. However, it's long white field with the St. Andrew's Cross in the upper left corner made it appear as a flag of surrender in the midst of battle. This led to the adoption of the Third National flag in March 1865, one month prior to the surrender of General Robert E. Lee at Appomattox Court House. This flag was similar to the Second National, different only in that it included a red stripe on the end of the flag. These were the only flags officially adopted as flags of the Confederacy. So, how did the Battle flag come to be the symbol of the Confederacy?
The Confederate Battle flag was exactly that - a battle flag. It was adopted by General P.G.T. Beauregard as a result of near friendly fire at the Battle of First Manassas. Beauregard, seeing a force moving on his left flank, stared at the flag of this force, but through the smoke of battle, was unable to determine whether it was the "Stars and Stripes" or the "Stars and Bars." Fortunately, Beauregard did not advance on the force as it turned out to be the 7th Louisiana Regiment. It was this incident that led Beauregard to push "then to have [our flag] changed if possible, or to adopt for my command a 'Battle flag,' which would be entirely different from any State or Federal flag."
It was Beauregard's design that became the now familiar battle flag, the flag flown primarily with land troops in battle and also used by cavalry and artillery units. The flag was only used in battle and never flew over government buildings or other facilities, though the design was incorporated into the Second and Third National flags.
So, why has the flag become such a divisive issue in American society today. For almost 85 years between the end of the Civil War and World War II, the "Confederate battle flag was the object of virtually uncontested public reverence in the South and increasing acceptance from the rest of the nation." Not until some Southerners began flying the flag in response to the 1954 landmark Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka did people begin to see the flag as a symbol of hatred as it is seen by some today. Also, hate groups, such as the Ku Klux Klan and neo-nazi's have adopted the flag as their own. But did those soldiers in 1861 see the flag as a symbol of hate? For many of them, the fact that a foreign power was invading their country and their shorelines were being blockaded (even though they had not seceded and were still a part of the federal union) was the reason they were fighting. Most of them had no regard for slavery, tariffs, or other political issues.
For more information on this most revered and hated symbol, John Coski, historian at the Museum of the Confederacy, has recently published The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem. Also of interest is "The Damned Red Flags of the Rebellion": The Confederate Battle Flag at Gettysburg by Richard Rollins.
-Irish-born Confederate Major General Patrick Cleburne in his January, 1864, letter which proposed the mass emancipation and enlistment of Black Southerners into the Confederate Army
ping
?.......What does a... 'Postmodern-Deconstrustionist'.....Flag look like?
The “Civil War” was not a civil war, it was a War Between the States – the south did not want to “conquer” the north, they simply wanted an equitable base for the tariffs being charged them – I think it was something like the South paid 70% and the North paid 30%, a lot of people felt that was unfair. So what is called a Civil War was really a War on Tariffs, or the War of Northern Aggression. The “free the slaves” epithet came later when President Lincoln needed a more popular reason for going to war. And he imprisoned many who publicly disagreed with him.
During the Lincoln administration, the suspension of habeas corpus and the declaration of martial law in the North led to the imprisonment of thousands of anti-war protesters, including myriad newspaper editors and owners and even priests and preachers.”
Personally, I don't view it as a symbol of racism or hate or what-have-you. I see it as the flag of a nation that killed as many of my fellow soldiers as 36 9/11 attacks. I personally find display of it Anti-American. I don't deny anyone their prerogative to fly it, but I know where their true loyalties lie. Mine lie with America.
The “Civil War” was not a civil war, it was a War Between the States...
It was a war of rebellion.
...they simply wanted an equitable base for the tariffs being charged them – I think it was something like the South paid 70% and the North paid 30%, a lot of people felt that was unfair...
There was an equitable base. Tariffs were applied uniformly, and the overwhemlming majority of the tariff revenue was generated in the Northern states.
So what is called a Civil War was really a War on Tariffs, or the War of Northern Aggression.
It was the War of Southern Rebellion, or War to Defend Slavery if you believe the southern leadership of the time.
And he imprisoned many who publicly disagreed with him.
As did the Davis regime.
During the Lincoln administration, the suspension of habeas corpus and the declaration of martial law in the North led to the imprisonment of thousands of anti-war protesters, including myriad newspaper editors and owners and even priests and preachers.”
The first person arrested for political reasons was a Pensacola Florida newspaper reporter who pissed off Braxton Bragg. From the first day of the rebellion to the very last day there was not a single moment when someone wasn't imprisoned in the Confederacy for polticial reasons. According the Jeff Neely in his "Southern Rights: Political Prisoners and the Myth of Confederate Constitutionalism" there were more political prisoners per capita in the confederacy than in the United States.
I just saw a trailer and there did appear to be a battleflag on the top of General Lee. It was a brief shot. In most of the action scenes that I saw it looked like they were trying to shoot the car from an angle that excluded a view of the top.
When I die , I pray that two flags be draped o'er my coffin ;
On top , the Stars and Stripes , of which I am mighty proud
and to this day would gladly give my life for , but under that , the Southern Cross , which has always been the closest to my heart
Thereafter may both be kept in my family and held in the highest regard , equally...
our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision...
And we have lived to see it.
Thanks for playing.
Usually I just read the news here and discuss it at work. My schedule's too tight for extended back-and-forths here.
I don't want to insult anybody. It's just the way I see it. I was raised in Oregon and am now stationed in Kentucky. I see bumper stickers displaying the confederate flag with captions that shed doubt on the driver's patriotism. And that's on-post! Causes me some concern, really.
Thank you for your service, sir.
I'm sure the majority of them do have honorable reasons for displaying it. I take issue, though, when I see a soldier (of all people) driving a vehicle with a sticker that says "Confederate by birth, Union by force." Such a sentiment seems to me to show that he feels something is so despicable about the US that he has to claim that he is not part of it by his free will.
BTTT
Well it didn't take the resident Southland haters long to show up.
You read minds? I don't care one way or the other about any particular regional identity in the US. In fact I think it is a divisive factor in our country. I take issue with people that display anti-American sentiments on a military base.
Those people just believe in the values of the old south. That is not a bad thing.
Unfortunately for Cleburne, his proposal to arm and emanicpate slaves, caused him a great deal of trouble with fellow officers and Confederate politicians and stymied his military career.
He died at Franklin but his proposal was dead long before he nobly fell. In late 1864 a similar proposal to Cleburne's was introduced into the Confederate Congress, promting a Mississippi representative to say, "All nature cries out against it. The Negro was ordained to slavery by the Almighty. Emancipation would be the destruction of our social and political system. God forbid that this Trojan Horse should be introduced among us."
A Rebel flag is not anti-American sentiment.
And let me tell you something, if Richard Nixon had come to the South deriding us for our love of our heritage, the South would be Democratic, and thats a fact, jack.
The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of pride for those of us whose ancestors fought for our land.
The first National Flag (7 star) will be flying at the RSA Tower, which will be among the tallest buildings in the country, standing proudly at 745 feet
And considering that there are a hell of alot of Southerners in our armed forces right now, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to disparage them for being proud of their heritage
In our city seat, we now have the Third National Flag, and alot of city cars still have the Battle Flag. In the seal of Alabama, the Battle Flag still occupies a prominent role (the one thing this state got right)
In Mississippi, when the liberals tried to take down the flag, they were told to take a hike twice, first by 67%, second by 86%
In Georgia, Sonny Perdue was elected because he told the people of South Georgia that they would be able to vote on the 1956 flag. He broke his word to these people, people who had never ever voted to elect a Republican governor before him. Thanks alot traitor, you'll have a hell of a time winning in 2006.
Ask both David Beasley and Jim Hodges how South Carolinians feel about the flag.
Ask Don Siegelman how well this state took it when he downsized the phrase "Heart of Dixie" on our license plates. I personally think if he hadn't done that, he might still be governor.
The Battle Flag is a symbol of pride, cultural heritage, and btw, Toby Keith uses it in his videos, you gonna insinuate that Mr. Keith is "anti-American"
And one last point, who is Fort Bragg named after?
In both New Orleans and Mobile, African-American militias were organized by the Confederates, and unlike the Yankees, we actually gave our African-American soldiers commissions as officers, and we actually allowed black unions to be led by blacks.
Yankees on the other hand, wouldn't commission blacks, and wanted them to be subservient to white commanders.
Yep, you are right, it was in Vietnam.
I suppose you have something to back that up? Because in all of Alabama there were fewer that 450 free black males between 20 and 60 and I'm kind of wondering where that milita came from? And in Louisiana the service of the only black unit organized under the confederacy was refused, and it later wound up serving in the Union Army.
You're invited back to respond....if you like.
"In both New Orleans and Mobile, African-American militias were organized by the Confederates,"
Unfortunately your statement is partially innaccurate. While it is true that at least one "all black" company of soldiers was raised in New Orleans, it was not raised by any Confederate authority nor by the State of Louisiana. The unit was formed locally during early 1861 and when it tried to volunteer its services to the State of Louisiana and the Confederate government, it was refused.
Some black individuals did serve in the Confederate Army/Navy and some definately did function in limited combat roles but by Confederate law, no slave or free black could officially enlist in the Confederate military until the law was changed in March 1865. Some units did allow blacks to serve in the ranks but Confederate official policy (law) was definately against that practice. Many historians have wondered how the war would have been different if the Confederate government had embraced abolition for slaves willing to serve in the military but it is all acedemic since they didn't until the war was all but lost.
Thanks. That link contradicts you and supports me.
Not really, it says plainly clear that Creole blacks had units
Ge. Robert E. Lee said of Cleburne: "On a field of battle he shone like a meteor in a clouded sky."
You said that the Confederates had organized the units, when the article makes it clear that the services of the Louisiana unit was refused and it later wound up as part of the Union army. The existence of the Mobile unit is doubtful.
Missisiippi ping
"those people just believe in the values of the Old South.That is not a bad thing"
No,its not a bad thing if you are talking about chivalry,manners,honor,patriotism,etc.
It IS a bad thing if those values are interpreted as endorsing chattle slavery,Jim Crow and racist violence like lynchings.
Not saying those latter values are endorsed by YOU but some Southerners have been known to reflect the latter list rather than the former.
I am of distant relation to the Chastangs.
More important than that though, there was a book, catalogging Reconstruction Politics in the city (and how moron George Harrington bankrupted us)
It states very clearly that the Creole blacks supported the Southern cause, even formed a unit.
Something everyone here already knew anyway.
The reason Creole blacks had such a hard time during Reconstruction was because poor blacks quite frankly hated them. At a time when most whites in the state were lucky to have $1,000, there were Creole blacks in Mobile with more than $10,000
(for the record, my ancestors assets, when totaled, were something like $80,000, before the war)
Somehow I just knew this thread would find you!!
Speaking of racism, could someone tell me again what happened in Boston when they desegregated the schools.
"A free black descended from one of George Washington's slaves, now the owner of a small farm near Mt. Vernon, offered twenty-eight acres, one-sixth of his property to be sold at auction to raise money for Virginia's defense.
"More active efforts in Virginia came form other quarters, like the fifty free blacks in Amelia County, and two-hundred more in Petersburg who offered themselves to the government to perform labor or even to fight under white officers. Slaves like a Tennessee barber named Jim donated money from their small savings to help raise companies; a Montgomery slave subscribed $150 of his own to the first call for loans from Secretary of the Treasury Christopher Memminger; not far from Mobile sixty slaves on one plantation practiced drilling every night after a full days' work, expressing their hope to fight the "damned buckram abolitionists" who had caused the crisis that now led to the fear of slave uprisings and the consequent curtailment of their few little freedoms."
-Look Away! William C. Davis
Davis goes on to say their motives and support varied. Some freedmen were in it for the business, using their skills as blacksmiths and masons, to earn money. Others were caught up in the excitement of the times, looking for adventure. Still others realized that although the might be near the bottom of the social order, it was still their state and they ought to defend it. Others had hopes of freedom if their patriotism was displayed during this time of crisis.
There are many good accounts of blacks and Jews in the Confederacy - lots of research is being done. North & South magazine ran a great article "Black Confederates: Myth or Reality?" (vol. 5 no.3) with many good sources and accounts.
The flag means different things to different people. I think it's just a flag and no big deal BUT the fact that issue is divisive is unavoidable.
"those people just believe in the values of the Old South.That is not a bad thing"
No,its not a bad thing if you are talking about chivalry,manners,honor,patriotism,etc.
It IS a bad thing if those values are interpreted as endorsing chattle slavery,Jim Crow and racist violence like lynchings.
Not saying those latter values are endorsed by YOU but some Southerners have been known to reflect the latter list rather than the former.
What happened in Boston when they tried to desegregate schools?Lots of very ugly violence by white mobs,thats what happened.
So if your point is that there was just as much racism in the North as the South so why does everyone pick on the South,guess what,I completely AGREE!
However,in recognizing that fact that does NOT excuse the excesses of certain Southerners whp perpetrated atrocities during the 1877-1965 era of Southern History.
I think it's just a flag and no big deal BUT the fact that issue is divisive is unavoidable.
It's one of those "ain't never gonna be settled"
this side of Heaven arguments!!
Did the Union have any Jewish or Native American generals?
I know the South did.
It is.
Jim Crow was a backlash political reaction that was devised by the populists in the late 1880s as a way to gain power from the Bourbons.
The way they were able to defeat the Bourbons is they made race their very clear issue, because by this point, black voters were started to vote in line with the Bourbons
Benjamin Ryan Tillman personifies this, another good example is Vardaman, Jeff Davis of Arkansas, and Theodore Bilbo would be a later adherent to this tradition.
But the fact is, if the North had followed the Lincoln/Johnson plan instead of the Stevens plan, all the gains made in the 1960s would have been made in the South by the 1920s
I for one am looking forward to a Bourbon restoration. :-)
But that's a decision made in the event of you losing. If you win, it's a war of national liberation.
I remember going to school with a Dukes of Hazzard lunchbox (now worth $600 in mint condition!) and a CBF cap. I was a fanatical fan at my young age thanks to Daisy Duke. My dad had a cbf license plate and my mom didn't say anything because she thought it was a very American thing. Plus a lot of flags from the Caribbean are also based on the same design (thanks to the Scotch-Irish influence). That's my sum total experience with the rebel flag. I'm only saying this so that the people who ask me privately why the CBF flag doesn't bother me knows why it doesn't (or why I'm not more offended by people flying the CBF).
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