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Counterpunch's Self-Hating Jews
FrontPageMag.com ^ | 6/21/'05 | Steven Plaut

Posted on 06/21/2005 6:45:42 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator

During World War II, there were Jewish "kapos" in Nazi concentration camps who were forced by the threat of immediate death to collaborate with the Germans and performs jobs involved in the murder of other Jews. We should not be too fast to judge them, given their dire circumstances and desperate desire to stay alive.

There are today, however, Jewish leftists who would like nothing better than to assist Jew-hating Arabs in creating a Second Jewish Holocaust, and their slavish and servile collaboration with genocidal Islamo-fascists has nothing to do with threats to their own lives.

Almost every self-hating Jew on the planet capable of banging on a keyboard is today either a columnist for the anti-American web magazine Counterpunch, run by Alexander Cockburn, or is an object of Counterpunch’s celebration. Counterpunch runs Norman Finkelstein, whom even the Anti-Defamation League has declared a Holocaust denier. It regularly runs the anti-Israel lecturer Neve Gordon, a deep admirer of Finkelstein who has turned out dozens of articles attacking Israel for Cockburn, as well as Israel’s Lord Haw-Haw Uri Avnery, and dozens of other anti-Israel Jews.

Now Counterpunch has decided to celebrate Gilad Atzmon, proudly proclaimed by Cockburn to be a “CounterPuncher”. Who is Atzmon?

Atzmon is a subliterate ex-Israeli saxophone player living in Britain, where he is active in numerous anti-Semitic organizations. He is one of the ultras in the UK trying to organize boycotts of Israel, and is well-known for his defense of the burning down of synagogues. He is a communist; the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) has just invited Gilad Atzmon to appear at their annual convention this July, "Marxism 2005". He has already spoken before the pro-Castro “Trots” twice and tooted his saxophone for them. (Wouldn’t these “Trotskyites” be surprised to hear that Trotsky’s own grandson is a militant Zionist “settler” in the West Bank today?)

Atzmon's ravings are carried on the PLO-front web site "one-state.org,” devoted to solving the problem of Israel's existence with the formation of a single Palestinian state in which Jews are delivered to the supporters of Hamas and the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Atzmon has turned out numerous anti-Israel articles for the Cockburns, and these have been run frequently on Counterpunch. There he has endorsed Islamofascist terrorism as a way to create a "balance of power" that can deter the US and has written: "If Islamic militants could practically endanger our existence we would have to listen to them with great respect. We would then have to look for a genuine means towards reconciliation."

Atzmon is so openly anti-Semitic that he has been denounced by the ordinary plain-vanilla anti-Zionist Leftists running around Britain. Many of these have demanded that the SWP renege on its invitation to Atzmon to speak before their convocation. A radical named Tony Greenstein has publicized demands on the forum of the so-called Just Peace UK for Atzmon not to appear at the Trotskyite cotillion. Greenstein has publicly declared that Atzmon is an open anti-Semite, that Atzmon is associated with open anti-Semites, and a Holocaust Denier or, at the very least, an apologist for them. In any case, the open Holocaust Deniers themselves proudly proclaim Atzmon to be one of their own. David Irving just loves Atzmon. It is always of interest to see Alexander Cockburn and David Irving, who has actually been convicted of Holocaust denial in a court of law, sharing the same affections.

Atzmon for his part has denounced his anti-Zionist Jewish critics on al-Jazeera. Atzmon insists that, “every Israeli and Diaspora Zionist Jew is a potential zio-agent.” On al-Jazeera he has also attacked British Jews in general in an article entitled "Protocols of the Elders of London", a naked affirmation of the old Czarist forgery. Atzmon proudly declares: " Holocaust Denial is in itself a Zionist terminology and I refuse to accept it or to use it." Atzmon has personally circulated neonazi and Holocaust Denial materials, including materials that support Ernst Zundel, who was recently deported from Canada to Germany for his Nazi activities in North America. He is so openly anti-Semitic that he has attempted to recruit the medieval libels about Jews as Christ-killers as ammunition against them.

Atzmon has tried to fan anti-Semitism by repeating the urban legends about the supposedly all-powerful "Zionist Lobby", legends that one ordinarily has to go to neonazi web sites in order to read. He writes: "On reflection, it must be terrifying that such a small lobby from a tiny state is so eager to push the rest of the world into endless confrontation." Among the main "mistakes of Israelis" Atzmon has discovered for his Counterpunch readers, have been "To believe that the creation of the state of Israel was an outcome of the Holocaust; To be convinced that the 'Jewish state' is a legitimate concept; To regard themselves as humanists: To be sure that Israel is immortal." Atzmon certainly regards Israel as mortal and openly wants to see it destroyed. The genocide of Jews that would accompany its destruction is just one of those unfortunate minor side effects from doing what people like Cockburn and Atzmon think is the right thing to do.

The Guardian, which no one could suspect of having Zionist sympathies, quotes Atzmon in this way: "Gilad Atzmon, a pro-Palestine advocate, gave a talk to students this month, arguing: 'I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act." That comment places Atzmon outside the circle of ordinary Jewish self-hating leftists merely seeking the destruction of Israel, and qualifies him for the title of Britain's leading kapo-wannabe. The only legitimate lesson of Auschwitz that Atzmon can see is that Israel needs to be destroyed and conservatives delegitimized:

"Auschwitz stands as a symbol of partnership between the European parliamentary left and the American expansionist right. For both, Auschwitz stands as an icon of threat against the image of open society, within the prospect of this fatal bond, any European genuine left is destined to be pushed to the margin. Any form of genuine left inspired by red aspirations is doomed to be presented as a subversive and radical outlook. In March 1998, Robin Cook, then the British foreign minister, paid a diplomatic visit to Israel. While there, Cook rightly refused to visit Yad Vashem (Holocuast Museum and Memorial), claiming that he was concerned with the future rather than with the past. It wasn't long before Cook lost his job. The refusal to bow to the Auschwitz tale cost Cook his job."

Cockburn just can't get enough of this crackpot and this week runs a piece by one Mary Rizzo, a moonbette who lives in Italy, who has written repeatedly in support of Atzmon, and who once again sings the praises of Atzmon for the Counterpunch crowd. Rizzo’s piece is devoted to defending Atzmon from the accusations against him of other Bash-Israel British Leftists who claim that he is a neonazi and is embarrassing the Left.

This was not the first such sycophant piece in Counterpunch celebrating the would-be synagogue-burner Atzmon. Jeffrey St. Clair, who co-authored with Alexander Cockburn a "book" devoted to the theme that it is unreasonable to call people anti-Semites simply because they want to see all the Jews murdered, has taken crayon to hand to sing Atzmon's praises as well.

Should new concentration camps for Jews ever be erected by the Islamofascists, with the help of their leftist allies, we expect to see Gilad Atzmon sitting there by the gate as the cattle cars are unloaded, playing his sax, with Alexander Cockburn dancing in the street.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: atzmon; cartocastroaxis; holocaustdenial; moonbats; nazis; originaldissent; palaeoleft; palaeos; poss; protocolspushers; selfhaters; therootedpeople; trotskynazis
I don't think anyone has posted this yet. I ran a search and didn't find it.

Please go to the original for imbedded hyperlinks.

1 posted on 06/21/2005 6:45:43 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: Alouette; SJackson

For your interest.


2 posted on 06/21/2005 6:48:52 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki leKhalev natati 'et Chevron, ki ruach 'acheret hayetah `immo.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Who reads Counterpunch with all the self-hating lefty freaks over at Haaretz?
3 posted on 06/21/2005 6:56:26 PM PDT by Alouette (The only thing learned from history is that nobody ever learns from history.)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
4 posted on 06/21/2005 6:57:51 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I don't think anyone has posted this yet. I ran a search and didn't find it. Please go to the original for imbedded hyperlinks.

I saw it. But Counterpunch, what does one expect?

5 posted on 06/21/2005 6:59:46 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

"During World War II, there were Jewish "kapos" in Nazi concentration camps who were forced by the threat of immediate death to collaborate with the Germans and performs jobs involved in the murder of other Jews. "

I never did understand why anyone would suggest that any guard be immune from prosecution. Is it true that jewish guards were not prosecuted?


6 posted on 06/21/2005 7:00:58 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot
I never did understand why anyone would suggest that any guard be immune from prosecution. Is it true that jewish guards were not prosecuted?

Inmates aren't guards, but I'm not aware that large numbers of guards were ever prosecuted.

7 posted on 06/21/2005 7:02:35 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: SJackson

How many even survived? The Nazis killed the kapos too, eventually.


8 posted on 06/21/2005 7:09:43 PM PDT by Cecily
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To: Cecily
How many even survived? The Nazis killed the kapos too, eventually.

I doubt anyone attempted to keep track of that.

9 posted on 06/21/2005 7:10:33 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: Thud

ping


10 posted on 06/21/2005 7:39:31 PM PDT by Dark Wing
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To: spanalot

Why is it that liberal Jewish Democrats vehemently oppose John Bolton for UN Ambassador? Bolton was instrumental in getting the UN to reverse it's position against anti-Semetic Israeli Zionism stance? Perhaps blinded by a corrupt alliance with socialists is blinding their sensabilities. The UN is corrupt, would sell Israel down a rathole if not for stalwarts like Bolton et al....and liberal Jewish senators rail against Bolton and not against the anti-semetic, corrupt UN hellhole? Are they stark-raving mad?


11 posted on 06/21/2005 7:46:29 PM PDT by tflabo (Take authority that's ours)
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To: tflabo

Why do you single out Jews?

Should Democrat Jews, because they're Jews, vote their religion or Israel?

They are Americans. They are Democrats. And they vote like s**bags. Exactly the same as their Democrat Christian colleagues.


12 posted on 06/21/2005 7:58:05 PM PDT by Sabramerican
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To: tflabo
Why is it that liberal Jewish Democrats vehemently oppose John Bolton for UN Ambassador?

For the same reason liberal Christian Democrats vehemently oppose John Bolton for UN Ambassador.

13 posted on 06/21/2005 7:59:36 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: Sabramerican
Why do you single out Jews?...Should Democrat Jews, because they're Jews, vote their religion or Israel?... They are Americans. They are Democrats. And they vote like s**bags. Exactly the same as their Democrat Christian colleagues.

Because they're always disloyal. You have to learn to look at these things through Jew colored glasses. "Conservatives" wear them too. :>)

14 posted on 06/21/2005 8:01:10 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: SJackson

No you're wrong.

All Conservatives support Israel.

Why if we only had one in the White House there would be no praise of a terrorist like Abbas or pressure on Israel.


15 posted on 06/21/2005 8:06:49 PM PDT by Sabramerican
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To: spanalot

No. John Demanjuk was found to be a guard and went on trial in Israel. He's still here and they are waiting to deport him.
There have been other cases.
The problem stems from trying to prove they were there. At the very least they can nail them on lying about their identity on their immigration papers.


16 posted on 06/21/2005 8:10:42 PM PDT by mabelkitty (Lurk forever, but once you post, your newbness shines like a new pair of shoes.)
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To: mabelkitty

He didn't mention Demanjuk, but every court that's looked at him says he was a camp guard. However he's being deported, since he entered illegally, not prosecuted. In general prosecution is done by the nation the crime was committed in. To my knowledge, run of the mill camp guards like Demanjuk aren't prosecuted very often.


17 posted on 06/21/2005 8:13:34 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: spanalot

Oh, I'm sorry.
You were talking about the kapos.
I thought you were talking about the Nazi guards.


18 posted on 06/21/2005 8:13:41 PM PDT by mabelkitty (Lurk forever, but once you post, your newbness shines like a new pair of shoes.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"Self-hating Jew" - the fall-back term when "anti-Semite" doesn't work as a fall-back term for inability or unwillingness to actually debate a subject. It comes across as pretty ridiculous.

Why is Israel the only country on earth where criticism of it is considered a form of racism? I've never heard anyone call someone of English ancestry who criticizes the UK a "self-hating Anglo-Saxon".

19 posted on 06/21/2005 8:14:33 PM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: Sabramerican
All Conservatives support Israel.

Depends how one defines conservative I suppose. It's generally self defined, but I'd certainly agree with most.

20 posted on 06/21/2005 8:14:37 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: inquest

"Why is Israel the only country on earth where criticism of it is considered a form of racism?"

Because there is always one standard (impossibly high) for Israel, and one for everybody else. Constant criticism of Israel, while saying little or nothing about the crimes and human rights abuses of Castro, Kim Jong-Il, Arafat, Mugabe, the ChiComs, etc., is a convenient way for anti-Semites to express their hatred of Jews.


21 posted on 06/21/2005 8:20:00 PM PDT by Cecily
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To: tflabo
Why is it that liberal Jewish Democrats vehemently ... [[snip]]

You've answered your own question. Depending on just how far to the left the "liberal Jew" is, you begin to see a shift from the philosophical view and even belief system from "Jew" to "Liberal." I've got family members who are "liberal Jews," but some take their Judaism seriously, while others are leftists who just happen to be Jews. Liberalism has become their "religion."

Mark

22 posted on 06/21/2005 8:22:19 PM PDT by MarkL (It was a shocking cock-up. The mice were furious!)
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To: SJackson

Yes, I believe he was prosecuted, there was a trial, and Israeli judges found him innocent (I can't remember all the details - it was well over 18 years ago).
In fact, he was in the Israeli courtroom doing the sign of the cross (though he kept doing it backwards).
It happened in Cleveland, where I live.
He's a retired Ford worker, and it was/is big news.
The only thing they could prove was the immigration papers, and he's been biding his time on appeals with it.


23 posted on 06/21/2005 8:22:32 PM PDT by mabelkitty (Lurk forever, but once you post, your newbness shines like a new pair of shoes.)
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To: Cecily
Liberals hold all Western countries to a higher standard than the others you mention. Israel isn't getting any special treatment out of this.
24 posted on 06/21/2005 8:22:51 PM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: mabelkitty
Yes, I believe he was prosecuted, there was a trial, and Israeli judges found him innocent

I meant in the US.

Briefly, he was thought to be Ivan the Terrible, and charged in Israel (Israel only charges major figures, which Ivan was) with crimes committed under both identities. He was convicted for the crimes of both Ivan and Demanjuk. After the fall of the iron curtain, evidence from the Soviets proved conclusively he wasn't Ivan. The Israeli Supreme Court overturned the conviction. The prosecutor wanted to charge him with the Demanjuk crimes, but was overruled by the court, since his deportation to Israel was based on the Ivan identity, so he was sent back.

The only interest of the US is the immigration violation, which every court has upheld. Israel isn't interested in him as Demanjuk. He's a small fry. I understand there's no where to deport him to, but if a prosecution were to occur it would be in Poland, where the crimes were committed, and rightfully I don't think they're interested, or the nation he's deported to. My guess he'll die here.

25 posted on 06/21/2005 8:29:33 PM PDT by SJackson (Israel should know if you push people too hard they will explode in your faces, Abed. palestinian)
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To: inquest

Israel gets piled on worse than any other country, except perhaps the USA. We are an economic and military superpower and have the luxury of not worrying about our survival as a nation when parts of the "international community" try to gang up on us. Israel's situation is much more tenuous in the world.


26 posted on 06/21/2005 8:31:29 PM PDT by Cecily
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: inquest
"Self-hating Jew" - the fall-back term when "anti-Semite" doesn't work as a fall-back term for inability or unwillingness to actually debate a subject.

No, I don't think that's a fair summary. The simple explanation is that a new term was needed for the seemingly inexplicable observation that certain Jews seemed to exhibit a special hostility toward the Jewish state, or toward steps being taken for the survival of the Jewish people. Calling a Jew an anti-Semite requires some explanation, and appears to involve a self-contradiction. There is a lot of verbal and scholastic talent in the Jewish community, so someone coined the phrase "self-hating Jew" to describe the situation, and to call attention to the inherent absurdity of the position.

Why is Israel the only country on earth where criticism of it is considered a form of racism? I've never heard anyone call someone of English ancestry who criticizes the UK a "self-hating Anglo-Saxon".

I think that's an interesting question. Let's analyze it.

First, I don't think you have fairly summarized the situation. In general, I don't think people are calling those who make isolated criticisms of single actions of Israel anti-Semites. It may happen, sure, but broadly I think it merely engenders a watchfulness for the possibility.

Watchfulness for what? For a pattern. A consistent pattern of singling out the Jewish state for criticism, for actions for which the same writer is silent or even indulgent about when committed by other states. I agree that once such a pattern is detected, an accusation of anti-Semitism often ensues.

Why? What's special about Israel in that respect? I mean, if someone consistently criticizes the actions of the Zimbabwean government, few assume an anti-black racism. Quite the contrary, actually. One reasonably concerned with the well-being of Black people, or people in general, ought to be critical of Mugabe's regime.

So what's different about Israel?

Israel is a state with a mission: a mission to be the home of last resort for the Jewish people. The Holocaust happened, but Israel is a living testament to the Jewish people's determination that if there is a next time, things will be different. If nothing else is different, this will be: there will be Israel to go to, if things fall apart.

Naturally enough, then, an attitude that Israel has no right to exist is therefore perceived as anti-Semitism, and you would probably agree that it is.

But most of the critics aren't saying that, right? They're just criticising Israel's actions, right? So what's the problem?

To answer it, I ask you to picture America in Israel's situation. Every week or month, some worthless scum goes to a mall in New Jersey, or a restaurant in Colorado, or a hotel in New York, and blows himself and a bunch of innocent people to smithereens. What would you want the government to do?

My answers to that question would make Israel's behavior seem downright tame. So I don't get the criticism of what seem like very measured responses to an utterly intolerable threat, and I strongly suspect that a consistent pattern of such criticism indicates an antipathy to something about Israel itself, or its people. Given the history of world hostility to Jewry, a conclusion of anti-Semitism is not a big leap. But I would grant the point that in many cases a poisoning with the Marxist meme would be a more precise explanation.

29 posted on 06/21/2005 9:01:30 PM PDT by Athwart
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To: Athwart

Excellent analysis. I'm printing several copies. Thank you for posting it. b


30 posted on 06/21/2005 9:32:45 PM PDT by Barset
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To: inquest

So there have been worldwide conferences and UN resolutions equating Americanism with racism?

There have been Emergency UN Sessions on only one country to date, Israel. Israel averages 20 plus UN Resolutions condemning it a year, for the past 10 years. UK none. France none. US none.

Three 'D's :

Deligitimization (Zionism is racism)

Demonization (Israel is an Apartheid state, Sharon is Hitler)

Double Standard (Israel can't build a wall even though Saudi Arabia, Thailand, India have walls; Israel denies its citizens human rights when it has the best rights record in the region)

These three indicate not legitimate political criticism, but a biased agenda.

If your point is that the left is also anti-American. You are correct. But that is not accompanied by attacks on American institutions and persons in Europe, for instance. And there was no move to boycott US products or universities or companies which do business with the US.


31 posted on 06/21/2005 10:48:09 PM PDT by dervish (multilateralism is the lowest common denominator)
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To: SJackson; dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist

I call the site "toomuchpunch"


32 posted on 06/22/2005 12:31:42 AM PDT by abu afak (abuafak@yahoo.ie)
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To: inquest
Why is Israel the only country on earth where criticism of it is considered a form of racism?

If your criticism consists of saying that a country should cease to exist and all its citizens exterminated then that would be a form of racism.

33 posted on 06/22/2005 3:17:36 AM PDT by Alouette (The only thing learned from history is that nobody ever learns from history.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
If Moshiach wants to form a Messianic State in the Holy Land, that will be different to the current State of Israel, will he be labeled a "Self-Hating Jew" ?
34 posted on 06/22/2005 3:22:02 AM PDT by Red Sea Swimmer (Tisha5765Bav)
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To: inquest
"Self-hating Jew" - the fall-back term when "anti-Semite" doesn't work as a fall-back term for inability or unwillingness to actually debate a subject. It comes across as pretty ridiculous.

Why is Israel the only country on earth where criticism of it is considered a form of racism? I've never heard anyone call someone of English ancestry who criticizes the UK a "self-hating Anglo-Saxon".

I wasn't aware that Holocaust denial and rationalization of the burning of synagogues constituted a "criticism of the government of Israel."

Say hello to Willis and Fidel at the concert.

35 posted on 06/22/2005 7:47:07 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki leKhalev natati 'et Chevron, ki ruach 'acheret hayetah `immo.)
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To: Red Sea Swimmer
If Moshiach wants to form a Messianic State in the Holy Land, that will be different to the current State of Israel, will he be labeled a "Self-Hating Jew"?

Atzmon isn't advocating a Torah state. He's denying the Holocaust, rationalizing the burning of synagogues, and denying that Israel should exist. I criticize the current State of Israel all the time. Funny how no "palaeos" come to the defense of critics of Israel like me (instead they defend suicidal Israeli concessions).

36 posted on 06/22/2005 7:54:53 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki leKhalev natati 'et Chevron, ki ruach 'acheret hayetah `immo.)
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To: Athwart
The simple explanation is that a new term was needed for the seemingly inexplicable observation that certain Jews seemed to exhibit a special hostility toward the Jewish state, or toward steps being taken for the survival of the Jewish people.

The survival of the Jewish people? I can agree that the state of Israel - the actual political entity itself - is in a somewhat precarious position nowadays. But Jews have been living in America since the colonial era, and their survival doesn't seem to be in any danger at all. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not the least bit in favor of seeing Israel get dismantled. I just want to call a duck a duck.

But I would grant the point that in many cases a poisoning with the Marxist meme would be a more precise explanation.

That's the way I see it, too. It comes across to me as a more anti-Western than anti-Semitic outlook. It's true that France and Germany don't get the same treatment, because those countries have ceased quite some time ago to stand up for their cultural roots. So that primarily leaves the U.S. and Israel, though Britain and Taiwan get similar treatment from time to time as well, in proportion as they stand up for Western values (and I'd wager that Poland's about to join the club pretty soon, too). But overall, I find the term "self-hating Jew" a bit difficult to accept - the burden of such a bizarre accusation is on the accuser (though I'd agree that this Atzmon character seems to meet that burden of proof, but he's a very unusual case, even among leftists).

37 posted on 06/22/2005 11:12:14 AM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: dervish
If your point is that the left is also anti-American. You are correct. But that is not accompanied by attacks on American institutions and persons in Europe, for instance. And there was no move to boycott US products or universities or companies which do business with the US.

The U.S. isn't living on the front lines the way Israel is, so the opportunities for bashing aren't the same. The acid test of anti-Semitism is if a person can live among and interact with Jews without feelings of hostility. If he can, then everything else is political opinions, "legitimate" or not. Certainly a lot of leftist criticism of Israel is irrational. But that doesn't make it anti-Semitic, just anti-Western. The left wants the entire West to become weak so it can impose a communist agenda.

38 posted on 06/22/2005 11:19:33 AM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: tflabo

"Why is it that liberal Jewish Democrats vehemently oppose John Bolton for UN Ambassador?"

It is mystifying that some simply do not see how precarious our situation is in the middle east. I can only imagine that it is done reflexively to spite Bush who is hated more by the dems than was Nixon.


39 posted on 06/22/2005 2:47:46 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: mabelkitty

"The problem stems from trying to prove they were there"

No, the problem stemmed from the forged Soviet supplied proof that Demjanuk was Ivan the Terrible. The Kremlin has made great gains by beating the "Ukrainians are anti semites" drum periodically.


40 posted on 06/22/2005 2:52:39 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: dervish

"If your point is that the left is also anti-American. You are correct. But that is not accompanied by attacks on American institutions and persons in Europe, for instance."

The left has its basis in marxist relativism. And the US has been THE ONLY one on the front line fighting marxism - to the tune of 60,000 lives including the Korean war, Viet Nam and even the WTC whih claimed more than Pearl Harbor.

Let's not forget that all these terrorists grew up in an anti western environment that was ostered in the 50's and 60's by the Kremlin. Lot's of middle easterners were educated in Moscow.


41 posted on 06/22/2005 3:05:58 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Entebbe

"The Kapos that survived that came to Israel did face retribution."

That's good to know. Any room for the NY Times editorial staff?


42 posted on 06/22/2005 3:07:48 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: inquest

"The acid test of anti-Semitism is if a person can live among and interact with Jews without feelings of hostility. If he can, then everything else is political opinions, "legitimate" or not."

And the macro picture is that if countries can not live with and interact with a Jewish State without feelings of hostility then it is anti-Semitism.

What you fail to factor in is that much of criticism of Israel is PC cover for the left. In a post-Holocaust Europe it is simply not acceptable to attack Jews per se.

Nevertheless since the Second Intifadah record numbers of Jews in Europe have been attacked, with very little done, and studies show it is connected to leftist demonization of Israel, what do you call it? When the Arab media conflates Jews with Israel in their venom, I get the picture.

What do you make of Europeans when they say -- we don't dislike the American people just your government? Does that wash with you? Or do you think, as I do, we are the government and they hate us? That actually came more clearly to the surface when Europe's headlines post-Presidential election read how 53% of Americans were morons.


43 posted on 06/22/2005 5:04:54 PM PDT by dervish (multilateralism is the lowest common denominator)
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To: dervish
And the macro picture is that if countries can not live with and interact with a Jewish State without feelings of hostility then it is anti-Semitism.

I don't buy it. There are all kinds of possible reasons for hostility towards any given country, some rational, some irrational. But you can't just isolate one reason without further evidence, and the evidence is going to vary from person to person. All you can conclude about someone from the mere fact that he doesn't like Israel is that he doesn't like Israel, for whatever reason.

Nevertheless since the Second Intifadah record numbers of Jews in Europe have been attacked, with very little done, and studies show it is connected to leftist demonization of Israel, what do you call it?

I don't know for sure how a study can conclude this, but either way, the fact that criticism of Israel by one group of people results in another group of people attacking Jews doesn't mean that the criticism itself is motivated by Jew-hatred on the part of the first group. Any time one person says something, others might draw their own conclusions from it and act accordingly.

What do you make of Europeans when they say -- we don't dislike the American people just your government?

I'd need to know more about the person saying that to know whether he's sincere. But in general, it's entirely possible to hate a country's government, even if it's democratically elected, while not hating its people.

44 posted on 06/22/2005 5:20:44 PM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: spanalot

If you don't already, you would like David Horowitz (Frontpage Magazine). His book Unholy Alliance makes the connection between the Communist letists and the pro-Islamist leftists.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7590


"And the US has been THE ONLY one on the front line fighting marxism"

and

"Let's not forget that all these terrorists grew up in an anti western environment that was ostered in the 50's and 60's by the Kremlin."

I don't forget that PLO, morphed into PA, and the anti-Israel terror groups are Marxist, as is Syria and Baathism. that puts Israel on the frontline as well.



45 posted on 06/22/2005 6:07:14 PM PDT by dervish (multilateralism is the lowest common denominator)
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