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Europe's Angry Muslims
Foreign Affairs ^ | July/Aug 2005 | Robert S. Leiken

Posted on 07/04/2005 7:34:35 AM PDT by mal

The footprint of Muslim immigrants in Europe is already more visible than that of the Hispanic population in the United States. Unlike the jumble of nationalities that make up the American Latino community, the Muslims of western Europe are likely to be distinct, cohesive, and bitter. In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways, producing a variant of what the French scholar Olivier Roy calls "globalized Islam": militant Islamic resentment at Western dominance, anti-imperialism exalted by revivalism.

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: deathofthewest; eurabia; europeanmuslims
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1 posted on 07/04/2005 7:34:35 AM PDT by mal
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To: mal

Islam: Always Angry, All The Time.


2 posted on 07/04/2005 7:35:51 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido

Hey, new tagline!


3 posted on 07/04/2005 7:36:18 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (Islam: Always Angry, All The Time.)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: mal

Is it really neccessary to snip all articles after 1 paragraph? Sucha waste of time. Please only do so when the media source has expressly insisted upon it, or if the outlet was part of the settlement with FR.


5 posted on 07/04/2005 7:39:06 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Larry Lucido

It's a good tag-line.


6 posted on 07/04/2005 7:40:52 AM PDT by tiamat ("If some guy named Marduk calls, tell him I'm not home!")
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To: mal
...the Muslims of western Europe are likely to be distinct, cohesive, and bitter. In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways, producing a variant of what the French scholar Olivier Roy calls "globalized Islam"

A rampaging malignant cancer. The patient is in a coma. The prognosis is grim.

7 posted on 07/04/2005 7:43:12 AM PDT by TADSLOS (Right Wing Infidel since 1954)
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To: mal

"host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers"

LOL Since when should any country HAVE to accomodate newcomers? Common sense should dictate that "newcomers" adapt to the ways of their host country. This crap is really starting to irritate me when I see that the US is learning nothing by looking at Europe and its immigration problems.


8 posted on 07/04/2005 7:43:22 AM PDT by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like what you say))
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To: Larry Lucido
Europe's Angry Muslims


9 posted on 07/04/2005 7:43:43 AM PDT by Vision (When Hillary Says She's Going To Put The Military On Our Borders...She Becomes Our Next President)
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To: mal

Angry muslim????......that's like saying "wet water".

Now a not angry, peaceful muslim would be news...news reported in an obituary.


10 posted on 07/04/2005 7:44:33 AM PDT by ArmedNReady (Islam, the Cancer on Humanity.)
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To: mal
Great article, and especially interesting in that appears in Foreign Affairs. The author refers to a coming "tipping point" which might be close at hand. The explosion of Eurabia is going to be a bloody mess, and I predict the most brutal reaction will be in France. The demographic clock is ticking, so better sooner than later...
11 posted on 07/04/2005 7:53:06 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: mal
Most Muslims, believe it or not, are not angry, even a lot of the time. They are too busy just living.

The Angry Muslims, a very small minority of the 1 billion Muslims in the world, get voice and media coverage because the media WANT to cover them. Only 1/4 of all Muslims are Arabs. The media ESPECIALLY love to cover the Angry Arab Muslims. And since those few Angry Arab Muslims killed Americans, we worry very much, justifiably, about them.

Bush has kept us safe here for the last four years.
Europe has to be more Bush-like if they too want to be safer. They will.

When the boom lowers, read that as stiffer laws and penalties for suspected terrorists, a.k.a. racial profiling, the liberals of every ilk, especial the MSM of each country, do and will continue to squeal like stuck pigs. But the majority of people, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER heard because of the MSM's agenda of giving voice to ONLY those who fit into the MSM's package, will BE GLAD to be safe.
They, the SILENCED-by-the-MSM majority, are not our enemies. The terrorists and MSM are. The two of them have been teammates for decades.

Three and a half million central Africans (in and around the Congo) have died in the past 10 years from civil wars. That, however, is no news for us. The MSM simply isn't interested in THOSE deaths. Africa doesn't matter to them. Africa doesn't sell toothpaste, potato chips or beer -- or win Pulitzer prizes. Angry Arab Muslims do. Thus, the "bottom-line" agenda mixes in with the MSM's political and social agenda.

12 posted on 07/04/2005 7:54:17 AM PDT by starfish923
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To: mal

Huh? There are angry Muslims in Europe? That's weird.


13 posted on 07/04/2005 7:54:43 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: ArmedNReady
"Now a not angry, peaceful muslim would be news...news reported in an obituary."

You are wrong there are such Muslims. They tend to die after around 30 lashes at a public flogging, of if their husband's beat them too hard.

14 posted on 07/04/2005 7:58:46 AM PDT by Kelly_2000 (Because they stand on a wall and say nothing is going to hurt you tonight. Not on my watch)
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To: mal

Were it not for our insane tolerance for the demands of communist splinter groups like the ACLU, we would be deporting Muslims by the tens of thousands. Europe has to END all immigration from Muslim nations, as do we. Total separation is critical if we are to survive the Global Jihad.


15 posted on 07/04/2005 7:59:49 AM PDT by montag813
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To: mal
host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways

Let me get this straight: Muslims immigrate to a foreign country, one that tolerates their religion but that is dominated by Christiantiy and has been for 1,000 years. The Muslims, members of a "religion" whose adherents have been responsible for some of the most heinous terroristic crimes in the last century, make no effort to integrate themselves into the host society, but instead huddle in their conclaves whispering and kvetching. And then they're "surprised and angry" that the world is suspicious of them, that they're not welcomed with open arms into the fold?

Anti-Muslim sentiment is the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. They're hated because they're murdering savages. They resent the people who hate them and vow to revenge the slights and insults. They commit more acts of terrorism in a sort of twisted "I'll show you" gesture. The world hates them more and more. And the cycle repeats.

When Muslim mayhem ceases, so will the hate. Until then, it's fully justified.

16 posted on 07/04/2005 8:00:25 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: freeangel
This crap is really starting to irritate me when I see that the US is learning nothing by looking at Europe and its immigration problems.

Au contraire, the Politically Correct Socialists in this country see very well the mess Islamic over flow is creating and making prayer rooms in our schools; allowing minarets replete with prayer calls heard around the hood.....The ACLU blocks all things Christian but give a leg up to Islam - maybe they don't think Islam is a religion? Naw, that couldn't be it....................

The message should be This is America, love it or leave it.

17 posted on 07/04/2005 8:01:25 AM PDT by yoe
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To: montag813

"Were it not for our insane tolerance for the demands of communist splinter groups like the ACLU, we would be deporting Muslims by the tens of thousands. Europe has to END all immigration from Muslim nations, as do we. Total separation is critical if we are to survive the Global Jihad."

I have to agree, it will take NOTHING less.....


18 posted on 07/04/2005 8:07:19 AM PDT by St.Mark
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To: mal
Islamic immigrants act like they have (or should have) been in Western Europe for 1,000 years.
19 posted on 07/04/2005 8:10:44 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: mal

Just another reason to double check before letting any more of these potential terrorists into our country.

I can tell you that some of the comments I hear from immigrant resident doctors at the hospital will make your blood boil.

These young men and women certainly feel that they are morally and mentally superior to their American counterparts.

These young doctors come from India, Iran, Egypt, Saudi and numerous other countries.

Since 9-11 they have become empowered to make these comments though supporters from CAIR and others of their ilk.


20 posted on 07/04/2005 8:16:25 AM PDT by OKIEDOC (LL THE)
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To: OKIEDOC

Are you forced by an HMO to go to foreign doctors with this attitude? I certainly wouldn't. Let them go back to their disease-ridden hellholes and do some good there. Oh, I forgot, they DO love our money.


21 posted on 07/04/2005 8:21:29 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: mal

Muslims are pissed off because they themselves "are" Muslims and even more pissed off because others aren't Muslims.

Misery loves company.


22 posted on 07/04/2005 8:27:02 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (Activist liberal Judges, have turned the SCOTUS into a malignancy, devouring the US Constitution.)
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To: Larry Lucido

LOL! Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. But that is a goodun, for sure.


23 posted on 07/04/2005 8:29:03 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (Activist liberal Judges, have turned the SCOTUS into a malignancy, devouring the US Constitution.)
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To: starfish923
The Angry Muslims, a very small minority of the 1 billion Muslims in the world

How many fewer than 1 billion Muslims would there be in the world if conversion from Islam were not punishable by death?

I don't doubt that most Muslims are not angry, because I'm guessing that most Muslims don't care about religion any more than most Christians do these days.

But I think the proporation of "angry" Muslims is a lot higher among those who take the religion seriously.

Moreover, the Muslim world has allowed "the angry Muslims" to become the public face of Islam, just as the good Germans allowed Hitler to become the public face of Germany. All Muslims must take responsibility for that. The few statements of opposition by the Muslim world to the barbaric and wonton Muslim war on the west have been tepid, scarce and sparsely attended.

If Islam has any redeeming qualities or benefits to bestow on humanity, they have yet to be made clear to me.

And don't tell me it's because of the MSM only talking about "angry" Muslims. This is the same MSM that has virtually censored any pictures of 9-11 since a few months after that horrific event.

24 posted on 07/04/2005 8:32:00 AM PDT by Maceman (The Qur'an is Qur'ap.)
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To: starfish923
Most Muslims, believe it or not, are not angry, even a lot of the time. They are too busy just living.

But....... at the end of the day, we are still infidels in their eyes.

25 posted on 07/04/2005 8:32:56 AM PDT by umgud (Comment removed by poster before moderator could get to it)
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To: Always A Marine

Despite the irrational and incessant hatred toward France often demonstrated here, it's interesting that France is the country that has been taking this problem the most seriously and has the most severe policies. The British are really out to lunch. But it looks like the post WW2 guilt is fading away and European attitudes from top to bottom are finally changing. At least that is encouraging.


26 posted on 07/04/2005 8:41:10 AM PDT by ValenB4 ("Every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets." - Isaac Asimov)
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To: mal

BTTT for later reference. Outstanding, yet chilling, article.


27 posted on 07/04/2005 8:47:11 AM PDT by MattinNJ (Allen/Pawlenty in 08-play the map.)
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To: mal

Homeland Security had better wake up to the danger of EU Muslim travelers.


28 posted on 07/04/2005 8:51:05 AM PDT by hershey
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To: mal
It's gonna be pretty funny when that war starts.
29 posted on 07/04/2005 8:55:26 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (Every evil which liberals imagine Judaism and Christianity to be, islam is.)
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To: ValenB4

well said


30 posted on 07/04/2005 8:59:15 AM PDT by Kelly_2000 (Because they stand on a wall and say nothing is going to hurt you tonight. Not on my watch)
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To: Larry Lucido

Nice find, I've been looking for something lately myself.


31 posted on 07/04/2005 9:02:27 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (This space intentionally blank) (NRA)
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To: ValenB4
Despite the irrational and incessant hatred toward France often demonstrated here, it's interesting that France is the country that has been taking this problem the most seriously and has the most severe policies.

France is a very interesting case in many regards. Though the French can be stubborn, haughty, condescending and sometimes very wrong about many things, they also possess a stunning volatility. And when the French decide that they've had enough, they can act swiftly, violently, and without mercy.

All of these qualities, good and bad, will come in handy when a critical mass of Frenchmen realize their nation's survival is at stake. Though still unthinkable right now, mass expulsion is the only viable way for Western Europe to survive. I believe that France will lead the way. The backlash will be brutal, and the distinctive Muslim minorities will have no place to hide.

32 posted on 07/04/2005 9:03:03 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: mal

IMO muslims hate themselves as much as they hate everyone else. (Everyone hates muslims).


33 posted on 07/04/2005 9:07:39 AM PDT by tkathy (Tyranny breeds terrorism. Freedom breeds peace.)
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To: freeangel

THANK YOU!
WHY are they angry? They LEFT a country( presumably) they no longer wanted to be in, and moved to one they DID want to live in-and they're 'bitter' and angry?
Could it be that- like most sociopaths- their misery is based one WHO and WHAT they are, not WHERE they are? They don't escape misery, they bring it with them!
There is only one solution to the miserable/criminal/terrorist
Muslim problem- the obvious one that no one has the guts to initiate- DEPORTATION.
Right back to the Islamic paradise of their origin- or admiration.


34 posted on 07/04/2005 9:17:32 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: mal
The mass immigration of Muslims to Europe was an unintended consequence of post-World War II guest-worker programs. Backed by friendly politicians and sympathetic judges, foreign workers, who were supposed to stay temporarily, benefited from family reunification programs and became permanent. Successive waves of immigrants formed a sea of descendants.

Think GWB's "guest workers." It's amnestia and nothing else.

Unlike their U.S. counterparts, who entered a gigantic country built on immigration, most Muslim newcomers to western Europe started arriving only after World War II, crowding into small, culturally homogenous nations.

Mass immigration will destroy America as well, probably before it destroys Europe. This is just PC.

In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers

Immigration so huge, either in Europe or America, that it will soon make the natives a minority in their own homeland is a historical tidal wave that can't be dealt with by learning "to integrate newcomers", that is to say by a government program, any more than damage by that tsunami a while back could have been stopped by a government decree. When Muslims are a majority in a country what will all this blather about better integration mean? And what does integrating newcomers mean in the first place except sacrificing the local culture for the benefit of the colonists (and putting more power to control society in the hands of the centralized authorities)?

Muslim Brotherhood, curses his new homeland: "Oh sweet France! Are you astonished that so many of your children commune in a stinging naal bou la France [fuck France], and damn your Fathers?"

Except, of course, these are not France's children, anymore than a kitten born in an oven is a biscuit. Here we have the real problem, this ridiculous pretense that nations are obsolete, that they consist of anyone who pays taxes and is obedient to the central government and who adheres to some ever-changing liberal "creed." Or in the case of these Muslims don't, since their very antagonism to Western society serves the purpose of the elite who brought them and keep them there. They are the stormtroopers of the elite's assault on society and a weapon of control and thus are not held to the alleged standards of modern leftism.

In a fit of absentmindedness, during which its academics discoursed on the obsolescence of the nation-state, western Europe acquired not a colonial empire but something of an internal colony

Exactly. There has been a lot of loose talk about America being an empire, it is an empire, but an internal one, a culture-less collection of disparate peoples held together by force and money, and when the money gives out, people will be stunned by how quickly it all falls apart.

35 posted on 07/04/2005 9:22:05 AM PDT by jordan8
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To: freeangel

Accomodation means to tolerate cultural diversity on condition that individuals assimilate to the dominant national culture. The segregation of Turks in Germany is largely of their own choosing.


36 posted on 07/04/2005 9:42:34 AM PDT by RobbyS (chirho)
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To: mal
Perhaps we should revisit Sir Winston Churchill's warning about Islam:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine‹must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science (the science against which it had vainly struggled) the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

[from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248 50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899)]

37 posted on 07/04/2005 9:42:40 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: AD from SpringBay

Wake up and smell the coffee. The article is long but well worth a thorough read.


38 posted on 07/04/2005 9:46:22 AM PDT by Inkie (Surround Fallujia and start shooting.)
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To: mal
The best thing we can do is what the US and it's allies are doing. Democratize the middle east. When their home countries are properous, they will move home.

Are the eurinals smart enough to see this? Darned few of them are. Britain, the Netherlands, Poland, and a few others, but for the main part of europe, they are sitting on their thumbs crying "woe is me".

39 posted on 07/04/2005 10:07:36 AM PDT by McGavin999 (i)
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To: Inkie

Huh? Somebody didn't get my sarcasm? That's weird.


40 posted on 07/04/2005 10:50:36 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: Larry Lucido
Tagline Provokes Islamic Fury
41 posted on 07/04/2005 10:55:23 AM PDT by dighton
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To: Always A Marine

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine‹must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.


42 posted on 07/04/2005 10:57:29 AM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: starfish923
Bush has kept us safe here for the last four years. Europe has to be more Bush-like if they too want to be safer. They will.

Europe has a much bigger problem. For example, Muslims make up a larger share of the population in France--7 to 10 percent according to the article--compared to less than 2% in the US. Secondly, Muslims are more easily assimilated in the US due to our immigrant tradition. Europeans are not as tolerant of other cultures in their midst. Third, the populations of most European countries are declining and aging. They need immigrants to provide the workforce for their economies and generous social welfare systems. On the other hand, Muslims are reproducing at higher rates than the native born populations. Finally, it is more difficult to protect national borders given Maastricht and the EU.

What the Europeans have to fear most is greater political engagemement by Muslims. Heretofore, French muslims do not participate in the political process to the same degree as the native French. If they become up to 20% of the population by 2025 per this article, i.e., the Muslim population is expected to double by then, and become politically active, the basic fabric will change through democratic means. If people get excited now about right wingers like Le Penn, imagine what will happen 20 years from now. I see rising political strife in those countries with large Muslim populations.

43 posted on 07/04/2005 11:18:25 AM PDT by kabar
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To: montag813
Europe has to END all immigration from Muslim nations, as do we. Total separation is critical if we are to survive the Global Jihad.

Where will Europe's workers come from to support their economies? Most European countries have declining and aging populations.

44 posted on 07/04/2005 11:21:10 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Maceman
How many fewer than 1 billion Muslims would there be in the world if conversion from Islam were not punishable by death?
That was a long time ago. It's not that way any more. I don't think you question is relevant. There are a billion Hindus. It's all about birth rates, not ancient history.

I don't doubt that most Muslims are not angry, because I'm guessing that most Muslims don't care about religion any more than most Christians do these days.
Now, you are making sense.

But I think the proporation of "angry" Muslims is a lot higher among those who take the religion seriously.
This is an opinion brought to you by our MSM that have done AngryArabMuslim to death. If you were to judge our reactions to things, for example, by how many times the Rodney King beating was viewed, you would think that all poor, innocent victim-blacks are regularly beaten by racist pig cops. It's all a package, selling what the MSM wants YOU to know, think, learn, believe and get angry about.
I think there are WAY more angry, really angry liberals in this world than anything else.
The MSM truly believes that a feel-good story, "just the facts" and unbiased reporting just don't get the ratings that they want. They are probably correct. It AIN'T about truth, balance, fairness or choice. It's about money, ratings, money, agendas-when-possible, money.....and money.

Moreover, the Muslim world has allowed "the angry Muslims" to become the public face of Islam, just as the good Germans allowed Hitler to become the public face of Germany. All Muslims must take responsibility for that. The few statements of opposition by the Muslim world to the barbaric and wonton Muslim war on the west have been tepid, scarce and sparsely attended.
Please, try, just try not to bring Hitler into every conversation when your opinions run out of examples and steam. The MSM has made the AngryArabMuslim what he is today, not the average billion JoeMoSchmoe from Al-KobarKokomo.

If Islam has any redeeming qualities or benefits to bestow on humanity, they have yet to be made clear to me.
Islam is like any religion, a good one at heart, but corrupted by the people who are in it. I've heard Christians quote the Old Testament to justify bombing abortion clinics. If you read ugly things into their book and believe that every single Muslim on the planet lives and dies by those selected ugly words, then you are too programmed for any rational thinking. USE YOUR OWN COMMON SENSE.

And don't tell me it's because of the MSM only talking about "angry" Muslims. This is the same MSM that has virtually censored any pictures of 9-11 since a few months after that horrific event.
The MSM has SOAKED the world in AngryMuslimArab news for the past 20 years. It's been a bread-and-butter story for them for a generation. They have done the same thing with ANYTHING that will get ratings.

The MSM neglect the millions of Angry Africans who are killing each other to the tune of 3.8 million in the last ten years in the Congo countries. They ignore the civil wars, mostly, in Sudan and South America (the cocaine countries). Most people don't even know what's going on there. They aren't made to care by the MSM. They COULD be, but the MSM just isn't interested in Africa.

Yet, we have to know every sordid detail about ONE young, blonde, pretty, white, rich (OF COURSE! If she were old, poor, fat or ugly, she would NEVER make the news.) American woman in Aruba who got mixed up with assholes. Most Americans don't even know where Aruba is. The MSM did the Scott Peterson and O.J. Simposon trials to death! Who cares? Individual murders and deaths happen every day. WHY make Kobe Bryant's fiasco so huge. RIDICULOUS. That is your MSM. No one else did it but them.

The MSM make the news, chooses what to air, who to air, how much to air, how to package the information, when to air it, when to stop airing it, when to air it to death, who to comment on it, how much commentary there will be and when, the content and photos of that commentary, the background of said "news" and when to keep updating us on their agendized package.
They costume, make-up and prep their news readers, who are either young twitettes (male/female) or middle-aged males with deep voices, passable faces, hair and a serious faces.

Get a grip. The MSM is as contrived, packaged, planned, written, produced and edited by Hollywood pros as much as any and all the T.V. program or made-for-T.V. movie/documentaries.

My rants here wouldn't get a chance to "air" unless it were for the non-MSM medium of the Internet. Clear Mace from head and brain!

45 posted on 07/04/2005 11:28:12 AM PDT by starfish923
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To: jordan8
Exactly. There has been a lot of loose talk about America being an empire, it is an empire, but an internal one, a culture-less collection of disparate peoples held together by force and money, and when the money gives out, people will be stunned by how quickly it all falls apart.

A bit harsh don't you think. America does have a distinctive culture and national identity forged through its institutions, laws, people, history, and the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. I don't buy your premise that America is held together by force and money. Until the recent Hispanic tidal wave of immigration, the US has been able to assimilate its immigrants and obtain their allegience. Americans persevered through the Great Depression without the fabric of the society becoming unraveled.

46 posted on 07/04/2005 11:32:34 AM PDT by kabar
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To: starfish923; Maceman
I don't doubt that most Muslims are not angry, because I'm guessing that most Muslims don't care about religion any more than most Christians do these days. Now, you are making sense.

You both couldn't be more wrong. I have lived in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country), and Iran for a total of nine years. Islam is a religion that demands much from its adherents. Praying five times a day, fasting for a month (Ramadan), journeying once in a lifetime to Mecca/Medina (the haj), etc. are followeed religiously (pun intended) by most Muslims. Their level of particpation is much higher. Each predominately Muslim country has an official government department dealing with the religion and its practice in the country. There is no such thing as separation of mosque and state.

Islam is a way of life replete with its own legal system, i.e., Sharia law, which is inspired by the Koran. It is also a social system. If anything, Islamic fundamentalism is growing.

47 posted on 07/04/2005 11:44:48 AM PDT by kabar
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To: mal

Islam = malignant cancer on all mankind. Practicing Muslims should not be permitted in the U.S. and the rest ought to be invited to return to where they came from at the earlierst opportunity. Europe is lost.


48 posted on 07/04/2005 12:36:54 PM PDT by RichardW
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To: kabar
Europe has a much bigger problem. For example, Muslims make up a larger share of the population in France--7 to 10 percent according to the article--compared to less than 2% in the US.
France isn't all of Europe and the article MIGHT not be perfectly true. Imagine that, fudging statistics.
Also, Eastern Europeans make up the LION'S share of immigrants. Russians are right behind them.
The quintessential anti-immigrant "poster boy," MOST recently in France, is the picture of the obviously homosexual amle called the "Polish Plumber," not an Arab.

Secondly, Muslims are more easily assimilated in the US due to our immigrant tradition. Europeans are not as tolerant of other cultures in their midst.
The assimilation ease may also be due to the fact that we are more than four times larger in population than France and three and a half times larger than Germany. They are the biggest countries with 60 and 82 million respectively. The assimilation problem is even worse in tiny countries like Holland (16 million) or Sweden (9 million).
Tolerance is easy when the minorities aren't so visible.
Our country is also a zillion times large in space than ANY European country.
Besides, here in California, most Arabs are taken for Mexicans. Hey, swarthy complexion, black hair, brown eyes, mustache...and those are the women. Lol.

Third, the populations of most European countries are declining and aging. They need immigrants to provide the workforce for their economies and generous social welfare systems.
True enough.
The immigrants, as I mentioned above, are Eastern Europeans. Europe doesn't bring in the Turks and Arabs anymore. They prefer the Poles, Czechs, Rumanians, Croats, Russians, etc. THEY are white, Christian and MUCH easier to deal with.
Young male Arabs are now suspect. The group just isn't wanted any more. France IS stuck with more than its share because of Algeria. France DESERVES Algeria. What a pithole Algeria is.

On the other hand, Muslims are reproducing at higher rates than the native born populations.
True.
True for here; true for Israel; true for Muslims all over the world.
Hindus have the same soaring population, as does Mexico, Central/South America and Africa. THANK GOD the Chinese still practice some birth control They WOULD overrun the planet if they were set free to reproduce at will. Shudder.

Finally, it is more difficult to protect national borders given Maastricht and the EU.
True in the sense of their borders are open.
However, being so organized, you can believe that the French, German, Swiss, Scandinavians and Dutch have some very high tech security and know pretty much EXACTLY who is in their country, where they are and what they are doing.
OUR borders are the open doors. THEY scare me more than the EU open borders. I think our problem of open borders is worse. What the Europeans have to fear most is greater political engagemement by Muslims. Heretofore, French muslims do not participate in the political process to the same degree as the native French. If they become up to 20% of the population by 2025 per this article, i.e., the Muslim population is expected to double by then, and become politically active, the basic fabric will change through democratic means. If people get excited now about right wingers like Le Penn, imagine what will happen 20 years from now. I see rising political strife in those countries with large Muslim populations.

49 posted on 07/04/2005 1:56:59 PM PDT by starfish923
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To: kabar
You both couldn't be more wrong. I have lived in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country), and Iran for a total of nine years. Islam is a religion that demands much from its adherents. Praying five times a day, fasting for a month (Ramadan), journeying once in a lifetime to Mecca/Medina (the haj), etc. are followeed religiously (pun intended) by most Muslims. Their level of particpation is much higher. Each predominately Muslim country has an official government department dealing with the religion and its practice in the country. There is no such thing as separation of mosque and state. Islam is a way of life replete with its own legal system, i.e., Sharia law, which is inspired by the Koran. It is also a social system. If anything, Islamic fundamentalism is growing.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for five years. Yes, religion was a way of life, whether the people believed in it or not. But what has that to do with their being angry? Your entire premise makes no sense.
I think you just wanted to show off your knowledge of the middle east or simply tell us about your travels/living.

Most Saudis weren't angry. Hot, yes, angry, no.

I AM right.

50 posted on 07/04/2005 2:04:05 PM PDT by starfish923
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