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To: Dan(9698)

Thenks for the info. Looks like this is a case where their wa s actually proof of prior use. I'm hoping you aren't claimng that ranchers have to prove that there was never prior use. That would certainly turn the Constitution upside down.


17 posted on 07/18/2005 7:29:22 PM PDT by stop_rs2477
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To: stop_rs2477

I am saying that there has to be sufficient showing of prior use to make a prima facie case.

It does not have to be strong enough to be "proof".

After a prima facie case is made, all presumptions go to the prima facie case and the burden of proof shifts to the one opposing the road.

If the prima facie case is not overcome with "proof", the road is shown to exist.

For instance, if the one claiming there is a right of way presents a Government Land Office map showing the right of way, it establishes a prima facie case that there was a right of way there when the Government Surveyors surveyed to make the map.

Ancient documents are given a presumption of validity and so that presumption is taken as fact. The document cannot be attacked as in error because the person who prepared it cannot be cross examined.

Similar treatment is given to other presumptions. The presumptions do not have to be based on "proof" but rather can be based on inferences.

A similar presumption can be made that there was travel along a river to access land further up the river. The travel then made a public right of way for similar travel by other members of the public.

Rights of way that were dedicated to the public by this law never expire. The one who homesteaded the land, probably followed the existing trail to get to the land they homesteaded. A presumption can be made that they were not the first to travel that way to the land, and so were on notice that a trail existed prior to the homestead grant.

There are two parts of Hatch vs Black, the second is a rehearing of the first and the court further explained the operation of this law. It is still good law and is cited in federal cases as well as other states.

As I stated earlier, I have done extensive research on this.

I spent over 400 hours. Anyone else can research and find the same information.


18 posted on 07/19/2005 8:10:33 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: stop_rs2477
Who to believe? -- Believe geography.
150 year old trails followed natural routes, 'roads' that could not be blocked just because someone homesteaded or purchased the surrounding property.
That's why the burden of proof is on the person denying a right of way. We have a presumption of liberty, - to travel, to pass by, - under our Constitution.
Acquiring property does not give you the power to unreasonably deny access to a long established right of way.

But most of the disputed cases don't involve established right of ways. They involve allegations that haven't been proven. That's why the courts have consistently put the burden of proof on the trespasser.
-- 13 --


rs2477 wrote:
Thanks for the info. Looks like this is a case where their was actually proof of prior use. I'm hoping you aren't claimng that ranchers have to prove that there was never prior use. That would certainly turn the Constitution upside down.

Geography doesn't lie. -- A trail through natural passes, around swamps, lakes, etc, cannot be closed by merely acquiring the surrounding property. Our Constitutional rights of way trump 'absolute' property rights.

19 posted on 07/19/2005 8:17:36 AM PDT by musanon
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To: stop_rs2477

I should further explain.

In my research I cite about forty cases. Some cite Hatch vs Black and expand on the explanation.

There is extensive case law on this subject.

There is another law that applies it some of these situations. It is also an old federal law called the Unlawful Enclosures Act.

It was passed prior to homesteading and so its provisions are incorporated, by reference, into all homestead grants.

These laws do not infringe on private property rights because they are all incorporated in the land grant by reference. (Existing laws are all incorporated by reference even if it is not explicitly stated on the grant.)


20 posted on 07/19/2005 8:50:10 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: stop_rs2477
Great article on this issue:

WCVEF - The Grassroots Advocate
Address:http://www.wcvedfund.org/GAv5n30BLMEnforcesLaw.htm


" --- Although State Director Pierson instructed this new statewide policy be implemented this year, the laws it is intended to enforce are not new.

The policy is only a commitment by BLM to begin to enforce decades old existing laws which forbid obstructing or denying legal access to public lands by private landowners.
At least three of the existing laws which the policy is intended to enforce are cited in State Director Pierson's directive:

a. Grazing Regulations, 43 CFR 4140. 1(B)(7): "Interfering with lawful uses or users including obstructing free transit through or over public lands by force, threat, intimidation, SIGNS, barrier or locked gate." (emphasis added)

b. Unlawful Enclosures Act; 43 USC 1063: "No person by force threats, intimidation, or by fencing or enclosing, or any other unlawful means, shall prevent or obstruct, or shall combine any confederation with others to prevent or obstruct any person from peaceably entering upon any tract of public lands subject to entry under the public land laws of the United States, or shall prevent or obstruct free passage or transit over or through the public lands."

c. Taylor Grazing Act, 43 USC 315: "Nothing in this act shall be construed as in any way altering or restricting the right to hunt or fish within a grazing district in accordance with the laws of the United States or of any State or as vesting in any permittee any right whatsoever to interfere with hunting or fishing within a grazing district." Nothing herein contained shall restrict the acquisition, granting or use of permits, or right-of-way within grazing districts under existing law; or ingress or egress over the public lands in such districts for all proper and lawful purposes. . . "


Other authority which Pierson cites in his memorandum sent to all BLM District Field Offices in the state to enforce this sign policy include:

Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976; Highway Safety Act of 1966 (as amended); Surface Transportation Act of 1978; Title 23, United States Code, as codified by the Act of August 27, 1958; Title 8, United States Code, Section 4124; American Disabilities Act of 1990 and the Departmental Manual, Parts 135, 425, and 485.


These are not new regulations and laws BLM has decided to enforce, but have been in effect for decades. The Unlawful Enclosures Act was enacted in 1885. The Taylor Grazing Act has been in effect since 1933 - 34. These are not new laws - but only a commitment by BLM to finally start enforcing existing laws on behalf of the public.
21 posted on 07/19/2005 10:33:45 AM PDT by musanon
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