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The Schiavo Autopsy Results: Terri Dailies July 6
Accuracy in Media-Media Monitor ^ | July 6, 2005 | Cliff Kincaid

Posted on 07/06/2005 10:50:06 AM PDT by 8mmMauser

Several bloggers have drawn attention to a strange lead in a Washington Post story about the Terri Schiavo autopsy results. The June 16 Post story by David Brown said that "Terri Schiavo died of the effects of a profound and prolonged lack of oxygen to her brain on a day in 1990, but what caused that event isn't known and may never be, the physician who performed her autopsy said…"

(Excerpt) Read more at aim.org ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: accuracy; anncoulterscotus; autopsy; dumbbears; herofloriduhvoter; hino; media; msmbias; murderer; notnews; rushforfloriduhvoter; schiavo; schiavowifeabuser; schindler; terri; terridailythread; terrischiavo; unbalancedandanidiot; unbalancedleft; wifekiller
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To: Houmatt
>> Let's face facts: Michael the HINO loved Terri as much as I love Karla Homolka.

That has to be the most expressive sentiment I've heard all day :-)

101 posted on 07/06/2005 3:39:11 PM PDT by T'wit ("My little jokes don't hurt nobody. But when Congress makes a joke, it's the LAW!" -- Will Rogers)
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To: True Republican Patriot
Well no argument so now you go to my home page to make personal attacks about my heritage. Well listen up bucko. I have fully researched my family and the last slave owned was in 1801 on my father's side. So yes, they were fighting for their freedom from a centralized government that the Framers did not intend. Some of us don't bow to Washington for an answer to every question.

Now would it be too much to get back on topic? I have yet to see a valid Constitutional argument presented that would explain and back up the debacle in Florida

102 posted on 07/06/2005 3:55:59 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: highball

The timing of the release could have been better- could have waited for the autopsy, plus, it was released on the day Bush spoke. Fuhrman was overshadowed on the newshows.


103 posted on 07/06/2005 4:00:07 PM PDT by Voir Dire (I'm seeing and saying.)
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To: bvw
The Sheriff and his men implemented an illegal order.

Really? Funny that no one somehow noticed it was an illegal order. Not the legislature, the governor of the state, even expanding to the unconstitutional actions by Republicans none of the federal courts recognized it was. No one except a few keyboard warriors and some kooks that tied up Pinellas County, prevented free enterprise for local businesses, and perhaps even caused issues for families wanting to visit their loved ones also at the hospice

If the same had been done in war it would be a war crime. That they were "just following orders" does not protect them.

Exactly how would it have been a war crime? Provide chapter and verse of the Geneva Convention or any other Convention that states this. And now 'conservatives' run to international laws to support their position. Willing to give up even our sovereignty to argue your point? Since you can't find an argument in the Constitution, which you have yet to provide, we're going to delve into international law?

Would I swear a complaint for murder and conspiracy to murder against the whole lot -- sure! Why do I not? I have not the resources to go to Florida and do so.

As you are not a citizen of the state of Florida, it is, or never was, any of your business. As I have stated, which has yet to be refuted (and can't be), this was an internal issue for Florida and her citizens. But feel free to give the Attorney General of Florida a call. Give the Governor's office a call. Swear out a complaint against them. Just don't be suprised when they hang up after you give the reason you called

It might be like some Polish Jew swearing a warrant against the Nazis in Occupied Poland, but I hope not.

Well, done with you. Fanciful imagination you have though. One woman's untimely, but eventual, passing compared to the actions involved in the murder of 6 million people

104 posted on 07/06/2005 4:23:44 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears

Are you okay with a civil case that results in the death penalty for an innocent person who was not allowed any representation?


105 posted on 07/06/2005 4:25:48 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: BykrBayb
Are you okay with a civil case that results in the death penalty for an innocent person who was not allowed any representation?

Isn't that a leading (and mis-leading) question.

Your hysterical hyperbole aside, this wasn't a "death penalty" case. The court ruled that there was clear and convincing evidence, based upon the testimony of MS and others, that TS would not have wanted to live like this, and would have elected to forego continued use of the feeding tube. This ruling was in line with Florida statutory law and caselaw, and was upheld at every level of the state and federal judiciary.

And TS had plenty of representation, including no less than three guardians ad litem, and attorneys representing the interests of the Schindlers. I doubt that any similar case has ever been so heavily adjudicated.

106 posted on 07/06/2005 4:34:24 PM PDT by malakhi
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To: billbears

Didn't there used to be something in the Constitution about people having rights? Are all rights really reserved for the States? Amazing!


107 posted on 07/06/2005 4:39:34 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Earthdweller

Ohhhhh Earthdweller........I love that photo!!!


108 posted on 07/06/2005 4:41:41 PM PDT by pollywog (Psalm 121;1 I Lift my eyes to the hills from whence cometh my help.)
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To: malakhi

BB continues the fine tradition of misstating and misrepresenting the position of anyone who doesn't march, lockstep, with what she perceives as truth, despite all evidence to the contrary. "Disingenuous" doesn't even begin to describe what's happening here.


109 posted on 07/06/2005 4:41:58 PM PDT by mountaineer
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To: billbears

"So yes, they were fighting for their freedom from a centralized government that the Framers did not intend."

Hadn't heard up here in the North that story. We in the Union were taught that the Confederacy fought to keep Slaves and the Union fought to abolish Slavery. As noted in the earlier post, one's logic comes into question just as You have questioned numerous other posters. As to whether one sees some evidence, some never see what they don't want to see.Terri had a rotten HINO that she didn't deserve and it appears he mat have finished finally the objective he appears to have pursued that night fifteen years ago. Good night and have a great day!


110 posted on 07/06/2005 4:42:31 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot
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To: Houmatt
The truth hurts that bad?

To some, yes. Why else would they return to these threads, over and over, to tell us to shut up about it once and for all? Why else would they start flame wars, sending these threads to the Smoky Backroom, or causing them to be pulled? Why else would they gather at anti-Freeper sites, to discuss ways to shut us up? You bet it hurts that bad!

111 posted on 07/06/2005 4:53:55 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: malakhi

You squeezed in all the DU talking points on that one. Good job!


112 posted on 07/06/2005 4:55:13 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: mountaineer

Save your excitement. It's not a full-blown holocaust. Yet.


113 posted on 07/06/2005 5:03:09 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: mountaineer

Are you talking about me again, without pinging me again? Why are you so obsessed with me?


114 posted on 07/06/2005 5:07:34 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: 8mmMauser

bttt. Hurricane Dennis update. It's not in the Gulf until the weekend but wind speed is picking up. Thank you for this important thread. FV


115 posted on 07/06/2005 5:15:13 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: BykrBayb; floriduh voter

BB you can see what is going on by going back to the June
Dailies, True Confession time!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1416995/posts?page=1134

We finally had one of them admit their trade secret.

8mm


116 posted on 07/06/2005 5:18:18 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (www.ChristtheKingMaine.com)
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To: billbears
Terri said to her friend Diane "Where there is life there is hope." JUDGE GREER tampered with Diane's witness testimony, changed Terri's age so it would appear that she was too young to know better about living or dying when she said the above.

Judge George Greer is still on the bench, is directly responsible for starving Terri to death after TAMPERING WITH WITNESS TESTIMONY.

117 posted on 07/06/2005 5:19:34 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: billbears

You know the article about "creepy" George Felos was from www.newsmax.com, hardly Pharisees. You came hear to downplay Terri's murder. Room for all in here.


118 posted on 07/06/2005 5:21:50 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: billbears

The state sponsored Terri's murder proves that limited government arguments carry little weight when someone's civil rights are abused and they end up dead. Conservatives should not support hitleresque extermination of disabled people.


119 posted on 07/06/2005 5:24:00 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: malakhi

"And TS had plenty of representation, including no less than three guardians ad litem, and attorneys representing the interests of the Schindlers. I doubt that any similar case has ever been so heavily adjudicated."

Come on, get real! The ONLY Judge that found on the Evidence was legally blind. He dismissed all Evidence submitted by the Schindlers, he dismissed the Guardians ad litem when they agreed with the parents, he supported the HINO without examining Terri, he ordered that she be maintained in a Hospice for the terminally ill with six months to live or less and she was there seven years , ad nauseam. The Schindlers had one lawyer pro bono while the Judge ordered that Terri's Rehabilatation funds in trust be
used for the legal fees to order her death. Wow, a sad day for Justice!


120 posted on 07/06/2005 5:25:35 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (Facts don't Bother the Left! GOD BLESS TERRI and Her Real Family)
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To: tutstar
The post about the "oddball" Felos was from www.newsmax.com but meant to look like a freeper wrote it.

You know, here we go again, the looney tunes people who are against COLD BLOODED MURDER. I guess it's more politically correct to be pro-murder.

121 posted on 07/06/2005 5:26:30 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: billbears
The Geneva Convention certainly would treat this case as a war crime, and so would earlier understandings of the law of war crimes -- say for instance the case of Andersonville Prison Camp wherein men where starced and mistreated.

Here's one quick google hit -- you can do your own damned research:

Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health"

122 posted on 07/06/2005 5:28:58 PM PDT by bvw
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To: malakhi
You forgot the 400 Prophets calling for her torture and demise! to comply with applicable State statute and Judicial ruling.
123 posted on 07/06/2005 5:32:22 PM PDT by bvw
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To: billbears
"...this was an internal issue for Florida and her citizens."

I wish you were right. The national powers that oversee our life and death are already interfering.

Remember the AMA ruling a few weeks ago to oppose any state legalizations to support the presumption of life?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1427939/posts?page=200#200

"The...American Medical Association on [June 21, 2005 set]policy opposing any legislation that presumes patients would want life-sustaining treatment unless it is clear that they would not."

We have already agreed that we both want the Federal government and the AMA to allow us to make these decisions through our state legislature but apparently some people have different ideas.

You want the right to choose death when you want it and I want the right to choose life when I want it without the AMA or the Feds interfering.

We are on the same page with our core issue here.

The only problem is it looks like the Feds will stay out and your rights will be retained but the AMA has jumped the gun to try and block all states from making a decision to preserve my right to life unless I have a living will stating otherwise.

124 posted on 07/06/2005 5:33:38 PM PDT by Earthdweller (US descendant of French Protestants_"Where there is life, there is hope"..Terri Schindler)
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To: billbears
The entire county is corrupt - is that good enough for you? The county of Pinellas has a delegation that goes to Tallahassee once a year to lobby for money for the county. Judge Greer is part of the delegation. He is not independent and must obey Tallahassee to get money for Pinellas County. Senator Jim King is one of the culprits who is totally into the culture of death. Greer is King's point man. I'll post some graphics on this thread when I'm in the mood.

In addition, the biggest GOP fundraisers in the U.S. live in Pinellas County and what they want they get. Everyone in Pinellas who needs to be in jail is being shielded by the feds.

But, there's still hope that justice will be done, maybe not this year but in 2006.

I'm glad I haven't been driven off the road but I've been followed a few times by various law enforcement. We are living big brother already down here. It sure opened my eyes. I will continue to tell the truth and there are now three books out on Terri's murder at this time.

125 posted on 07/06/2005 5:37:33 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: 8mmMauser

That would explain a lot. Thanks.


126 posted on 07/06/2005 5:39:54 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: True Republican Patriot

The fact that Terri lasted nearly two weeks without hydration and nourishment is proof that her heart and other organs were all healthy and functioning just fine!

They killed her, plain and simple. I will be getting Mark's book and look forward to seeing the evidence that the liberal media refused to even consider.


127 posted on 07/06/2005 5:41:01 PM PDT by fox0566
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To: malakhi

Michael Schiavo didn't ever have to answer questions under oath himself. He used Attorney Ham Baskin to play with the court and with Terri's parents. Depos were set, Michael and Jodi were no shows and Judge Greer NEVER held them in contempt because they were all just waiting for Terri to be starved to death. There was a FIX, everybody knows it and someday, somebody's going to jail.


128 posted on 07/06/2005 5:41:08 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: freepertoo
Terri's fight is everyone's fight, they just don't realize it yet. I noticed that since the last Vigil, every time I turn on the news, there are groups protesting this issue or that. I believe Terri's supporters made an indelible stamp on the future and the right of Americans and even the Arubans to assemble and to exercise right to free speech. It's springing up everywhere. Poster Board and magic marker sales must be going through the roof. I think because we didn't behave like globalist anarchists who hate the entire world. I love this country but it needs a lot of work.

God Bless Terri and Terri's Fight.

129 posted on 07/06/2005 5:46:29 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: BykrBayb
Didn't there used to be something in the Constitution about people having rights? Are all rights really reserved for the States? Amazing!

The genesis of incorporation has been traced back to either Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railway Co. v. Chicago (1897) in which the Supreme Court appeared to require some form of just compensation for property appropriated by state or local authorities (although there was a state statute on the books that provided the same guarantee) or, more commonly, to Gitlow v. New York (1925), in which the Court expressly held that States were bound to observe First Amendment free speech protections. Since that time, the Court has steadily incorporated most of the significant provisions of the Bill of Rights. Exceptions are the Fifth Amendment right to an indictment by a grand jury, the Seventh Amendment right to a jury trial in civil lawsuits, which have been ruled to only apply in federal courts, and the Sixth Amendment's implicit command that a criminal jury can consist only of twelve members and must reach a unanimous verdict.

Incorporation (Bill of Rights)

Until 1897, it wasn't even a thought. Which means that the 14th Amendment was around for over 30 years before this 'right' that you speak of was divined by liberal judges. You better hope Brown doesn't get nominated by Bush. As libertarian as she is, along with Thomas and Scalia, the incoporated rights 'conservatives' expect may no longer exist if the right case arises. So in answer to your question, no there is not 'something in the Constitution about the citizens of the respective states having rights'

130 posted on 07/06/2005 5:47:32 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears

Jeb Bush had the authority in the Florida Constitution to rescue Terri without getting permission of the legislature or the renegade judges. Too bad he showed no moral leadership or courage because Floridians won't vote for Jeb if he seeks another office.


131 posted on 07/06/2005 5:49:30 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: billbears

So the States have a Constitutional Right to order the murder of their citizens, and the citizens have no right to life? Okay, thanks for clearing that up.


132 posted on 07/06/2005 5:50:29 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: floriduh voter
Terri said to her friend Diane "Where there is life there is hope."

Ah, so Diane's second hand testimony is accepted but the same testimony by her husband is in question. Interesting.

JUDGE GREER tampered with Diane's witness testimony, changed Terri's age so it would appear that she was too young to know better about living or dying when she said the above.

And of course you have documentation of this tampering? Of course you don't. But don't let that stop you.

Judge George Greer is still on the bench, is directly responsible for starving Terri to death after TAMPERING WITH WITNESS TESTIMONY.

Well as I said to another poster, take yourself down to the nearest police station and swear out a warrant. That is if they don't laugh you out of the station or lock you up. Be careful though, Scientologists have a looonnnggg arm, they'll get you....

133 posted on 07/06/2005 5:51:01 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: floriduh voter
hitleresque

Would it be possible for your group to engage in a discussion of the situation without invoking Godwin's law?

134 posted on 07/06/2005 5:52:13 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears

The documentation has been readily available over the Internet. If you didn't take the time to read any of it, that's your problem.


135 posted on 07/06/2005 5:53:05 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: BykrBayb
BB, they are "inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Terri was caged in a room, her wheelchair was broken, the blinds were shut, she couldn't even hear a Christmas choir or Santa Claus, she WAS NOT ALLOWED TO GO OUTSIDE for five years. She was still happy nonetheless as referenced by her blood relatives and she was alert and aware of her surroundings.

Her life and liberty were stolen from her and I'm sticking around until there is a federal ban to starving disabled Americans to death. The death lobby would like to destroy lives state to state. A Federal Ban would mean NEVER AGAIN.

136 posted on 07/06/2005 5:53:13 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: True Republican Patriot

They are the smothers brothers.


137 posted on 07/06/2005 5:53:49 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: BykrBayb

That's not what I stated. But don't let the facts get in the way of your weak argument. It was a civil case and nothing else. Provide Constitutional backing, as intended by the Framers, that would support your invocation of the national government into a state issue. You won't be able to but it will be interesting watching you try


138 posted on 07/06/2005 5:54:40 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears

Godwin's law does not apply when discussing something truly Hitleresque.


139 posted on 07/06/2005 5:54:52 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: BykrBayb

Sure it has been. Would that be 'Doctor' Hammesfahr's website or the Schindler website? But we'll not take any official court documents as records because they can't be trusted.


140 posted on 07/06/2005 5:56:18 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears

I'm having enough fun just watching you show how little you understand the Constitution. I don't usually get to see the DU talking points, since I don't hang out over there, or even visit. Your posts are enlightening, as well as entertaining.


141 posted on 07/06/2005 5:57:49 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: BykrBayb

Thankyou for explaining that disjointed logic as it had been presented by that poster.GOD BLESS TERRI!Abuse has a statute of Limitations, Murder has No Statute of Limitations!Mr. Sckakel discovered that the hard way, maybe others will be brought to Justice in the same way.


142 posted on 07/06/2005 5:58:25 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (Facts don't Bother the Left! GOD BLESS TERRI and Her Real Family)
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To: billbears

How about the court transcript, and greer's false summary of it?


143 posted on 07/06/2005 5:58:52 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: True Republican Patriot
You and I know that Terri had no representation who was lookingg out for her interests. Even the Attorneys who were trying to save her life were her parents' attorneys. Terri was never represented by counsel, as per Judge Greer who ran a tight ship, controlling everything so that nothing could go wrong the third time they tried to kill her.

JUDGE GREER SHOULD BE IMPEACHED. Florida is overlooking all of his bad deeds in Terri's case but he's ruined other lives as well and people have fled Florida with their lives to get away from Judge Greer's orders. He's a modern day executioner and that's why the hearse chasing bar associations keep giving him awards. They have a trust set up to rob the wards and then they quietly (usually) have them killed.

144 posted on 07/06/2005 5:58:53 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: True Republican Patriot

It's been fun watching this Constitutional scholar explain how right it was to kill Terri. I'm wondering if some official from the Catholic Church will show up to explain how right it was.


145 posted on 07/06/2005 6:01:16 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri Schindler <strike>Schiavo</strike> - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: billbears; floriduh voter; BykrBayb; True Republican Patriot

Billbears;I have been noting your posts for some time now and they are very consistent. Sounds like you have an agenda or are just having a bad day.

Surely, you do not think the separation of powers means the Judiciary trumps all, do you? Each time you come down on the side of the Judiciary as if you approve they are our ultimate rulers.

As you sneer at us who were on the scene, your motives are transparent as a windexed window.

Do you:

1. Just have a bad day?

2. Have an agenda?

3. Just want the topic of State sponsored murder to go away?

4. Other?


146 posted on 07/06/2005 6:02:58 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Deo gratias)
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To: billbears; ContraryMary
And of course you have documentation of this tampering? Of course you don't. But don't let that stop you.

The Schindlers attorney filed a flurry of papers just before March 18th when the tube was removed. One of them was that Judge Greer had mistaken Terris age at the time of her conversation with Diane. He responded that it made no difference. The Schindlers have removed the legal papers from the net but quite a few read it.

I pinged Mary because I believe that she read that particular document.

147 posted on 07/06/2005 6:03:11 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: fox0566
Head of Florida's House Judiciary Committee said to me in person at the beginning of week 2 "Terri will be a martyr." How'd he already know they weren't going to save her? That's Rep. Simmons from Orlando.

We asked him to impeach Greer too. He turned that into a press release but it appears it was more grandstanding to protect his future with his base.

The fix was in. Florida is a mess. It is getting worse.

I am supporting Tom Gallagher for Governor. Charlie Crist would only be a figurehead (they are dangerous). He is part of the coverup and no can do.

148 posted on 07/06/2005 6:03:48 PM PDT by floriduh voter (www.terrisfight.org & www.conservative-spirit.org... The Schindlers "Never again.")
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To: floriduh voter

Yep, You are correct, but at least the Smothers Brothers were humorous and not demented.


149 posted on 07/06/2005 6:04:43 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (Facts don't Bother the Left! GOD BLESS TERRI and Her Real Family)
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To: BykrBayb
I'm having enough fun just watching you show how little you understand the Constitution

It's sad really. All I have provided is links backing up my statements with Constitutional quotes and precedent. You haven't provided a single thing. Not one thing. Not one precedent. Not one case before SCOTUS supporting your view. And I'm the one with the problem understanding the Constitution.

Here's a clue for you. You cannot chop out misquoted bits of the Preamble or the Declaration and take them as the holy gospel. Provide an instance of original intent that the Constitution of the United States was meant to apply to the citizens of the respective states. I'll even give you a headstart. Look to Madison's intended Bill of Rights (the ones that weren't passed). Until then, really don't bother me.

150 posted on 07/06/2005 6:06:22 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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