Posted on 07/26/2005 4:28:07 AM PDT by voletti
One RARELY sees Muslims wearing turbans in this country, Sikh's do. And Sikh's wear their turbans COVERING their ears, Muslims ears are exposed.
I appreciate that change occurs. I appreciate that India is not where it was 50, 40, or even 30 years ago.
I appreciate that you and I will see something different. You know a lot and your response shows a lot of thought. And that's valuable.
I can only tell you that even in reading your response, even today I see something different that your response. Granted it's an ad hoc sampling of Hindus (I mean, how many can I really know? :) ), but given what I see, I have to uphold my view.
I am still holding firm on my view on child slavery. And I am still holding firm on my view that the older siblings are required to support the younger ones. It would be cheery if these patterns were fading. But I still see that which I see, even if it's a small sampling.
The chart is predicated on the theory of Aryan invasion from the north. Indologists have decided that's the way it was, with very little evidence to go on, and linguists have followed their lead. Currently there is some archeological work going on in India (too bad not in Pakistan that I know of) and more and more evidence is likely to surface substantiating the claims of extreme antiquity of the Vedic culture.
Just a couple of interesting details:
For anyone who even cursorily studies Sanskrit, like me - VERY cursorily since I am not a grammarian - far from it - and can't even read Devanagari - it becomes clear that Sanskrit is an extremely subtle, complex and sophisticated language. It is not the least primitive or derived. The grammar alone takes years to learn. In fact, traditionally it is said that it takes 12 years to learn Sanskrit properly. The mother language would naturally have a higher degree of sophistication than languages derived from it. An example is Bengali - which is derived from Sanskrit, and does not have the high degree of complexity and subtlety Sanskrit does. It is also a very nice language, and there have been many Bengali saints who have written much beautiful and scholarly works in Bengali. But even I can see which came first.
Additionally, many words have various levels of meaning, and that is why translating Sanskrit requires a great deal of wisdom and deep knowledge of Vedic truths, not just academic skill. For instance, the word "atma" can mean "body", "mind", "soul", or all three. It can mean the individual soul or it can sometimes mean the Paramatma (Parama+atma), the Supreme Soul, or God. So someone not having actual understanding of Vedic knowledge can mistranslate and get the opposite meaning than what was originally intended.
Keep in mind (I wish I had the quotes handy - I'll try to do some research on this) that in the 19th century there was a concerted, conscious effort among the British guardians of India to falsely present the Vedas and Vedic culture as something derived from other cultures - of more recent origin, than, say the ancient Greek culture. They knew it was a lie, but wanted to present falsely for various reasons.
Here's an interesting tidbit - (I can get the details later today, I really have to run away from FR in a minute) - there's a famous Vishnu temple in South India built on a hill. The hill is actually the remains of previous temples, as one temple fell into somewhat disrepair, the new temple was built upon the old. The hill is a good sized hill. Obviously no archeological work has been done on the hill, but the vast antiquity of the temple complex can only be imagined.
Here's another factoid that I can find the details of later - a specific stellar phenomenon, as recorded in one of the 4 Vedas (I can't remember which, I'll look later), has been ascertained as an actual conjunction which took place 26,000 years ago. It is recorded in the Vedas as an observed event.
Jump down my throat won't you, for making an innocent suggestion. Ignorant and innocent as I am, I was merely ASKING as well as suggesting.
"What do you mean a "Moslem" language? You mean Arabic? well, Arabic is older thanIslam. You mean Farsi (Persian)? Well, that's way older thanIslam, its as old as Hebrew. Sikhs speak Punjabi, a dialect of north-Indic Indo-European origins."
No, I was talking about any language commonly used by a population of Moslems. Not all Moslems are Arabic, and they don't all speak Arabic, either. I was just thinking perhaps some of the heavily Moslem areas neighboring India might have some same or very similar languages to what Sikhs typically speak. So that even 1 who speaks a 2nd language very close to his own might be able to cover as being a true Moslem w/o much if any accent to flush him out in the Moslem environment.
"Ethnically the same as some Moslems? Well, some Moslems are White Americans (J Walker) or White Europeans (Albanians, Bosnians, etc.) so would that make you/he the same?"
Again, I didn't SAY they are "the same" - I said they are very similar in some cases. Same as the language thing. Geesh. Duh SOME Moslems are white or black, but a HUGE bulk of Moslems are of a few (incidentally similar on the surface) different ethnic type (and we all know that, don't deny it), some of which I'm sure are very much similar if not the same as some Sikhs. Maybe. I don't know. I'm basically asking the question. For my uneducated eyes, some of them are similar.
"Besides Sikhs don't cut their hair at all -- either on the head or their beards (at least the strict ones don't) while even the taliban only made rules about not trimming beards. A Sikh would stand out -- even the style of wearing the turban is different from Afghani, Pathani etc. styles"
I had a pal in college (knew him for some 5 years - yes it was a long career) who was an American Sikh. Great good-natured fun guy. Visited India periodically and told me I should go. He was so American you'd NEVER suspect from his voice he had any foreign culture in him. (1 day he was really late to EE class and - shock - he had no turban! All his big hair was sticking out! I didn't know it had that much body! Normally he wore a blue turban IIRC. What a difference!) I am quite aware of what Sikhs do - altho less so of what the Afghan, etc, Moslems typically do.
Well, you are entitled to your view. However, I will state that a small sampling does not mean that you can generalise -- THAT is where you are dead wrong. Going by a small sampling of Americans (the Clintons, the Kerrys, a bunch of Hollywood types), one would get the wrong impression of Amerikaners too.
Interesting info. Thanks. So the doubt basically was about whether people came in or went out of the Subcontinent, and not whether the people spread across the arc connecting
Europe and the Subcontinent were in any way related or not.
:) Would you like me to send them to you? (Just kidding, I am not that mean) :D
"Keep in mind that your accusations have nothing to do with Hinduism as a religion and philosophy, and much to do with the fact that India was invaded and controlled by Muslims for hundreds of years, and then the British"
Oh c'mon now. Every Indian (and they're all Brahmins) in the US never like to face up to the caste system. The caste system is there since the beginning of Indu-valley civilization. In the past, it used to be that if you're a Dalit, you're basically a SLAVE. And if you're born into Dalit parents, you can't ever get out of it.
The only job a Dalit can get in India in the public sector is SEWAGE or GARBAGE collector. And that's today.
Maybe the cities in India are more progressive, but there have been many reports of violent beatings and killings whenever someone marries outside of his/her caste in the rural areas.
It's a system designed to keep population control in place, by placing the Brahmins up on top, followed by the royal family, followed by the merchants, then the Dalits. Heck, that's why Heinrich Himmler looked at the religion as a way to control the world population after Germany won WWII (naturally, Germans would be the Brahmins)
True. The more significant point is that India's social problems are not being manifested in the form of terrorism against the civilized world generally.
I was suprised, the second time I went to London, three years ago, to hand my passport to a customs agent who was a muslim woman in full cover, except for face and hands. What kind of example is that?
They should have learned after 9-11. They lost over 300 that day. Ten percent Brits on 9-11. Biggest one day loss of life since WWII. That was supposed to have been the wake up call. Guess it wasn't since it was "over there". Frankly the train bombings were pretty small potatoes compared to the towers coming down or even the Spanish train bombings.
Have you read either the Manu Samhita or the Bhagavad Gita? They both explain the origin of the caste system. Varnas, or castes, are actually supposed to be determined by character and work, personal qualities, not solely by birth. There are many stories in the Mahabharat and other places of people born in one varna but acting in another.
The caste system as it is practiced now is a deterioration of a system based on natural tendencies. Originally the lower caste sudras, for instance, were considered worthy and necessary members of society whose duty it was to help the other castes - work for them, in essence. They were not supposed to be exploited and used or abused.
If you haven't read the above texts describing the varnas and their responsibilities and duties, I can quote some verses later on illustrating my points.
Because it is deteriorated, doesn't mean the original social orders were a bad idea. People naturally fall into one category or another - some people are by nature intellectuals, some have more leadership and authoritative qualities, some are natural farmers and businessmen, and some like to be employees. Often such qualities run in families, and if a person grows up in, say, an intellectual type family, he may be more likely to develop those interests. But not necessarily. If a person's father is a doctor, he or she may have that interest as well. But the son or daughter of a doctor isn't automatically a doctor.
See how it works?
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