Judge says alcoholism no disease

Fort Wayne Journal Gazette ^ | July 29, 2005 | Sara Eaton

[WillMalven]

Alcoholism is a disease of the mind and the body. It is genetic in origin and it is always fatal if left untreated. For someone to say that it is simply a matter of choice is to speak out of profound ignorance. If it was just a matter of will, AA would not exist. I have been in the recovery community for 14 years. I have experienced the tremendous effort of will required for an alcoholic to abstain from alcohol (or drugs, addiction is addiction) for even a short period both personally and in the observation of others. It is not a weakness moral or otherwise.

It manifests itself as a mental obsession that, even though experience has proven to the alcoholic hundreds of times that to partake is to invite disaster, this time will be different. This is an obsession common to all real alcoholics, there is no exception.

Once alcohol has been ingested, in any amount, the disease then manifests itself as an uncontrollable craving. That craving can only be quenched by more alcohol.

The body of an alcoholic metabolizes alcohol in a different manner than "normies." That is why an alcoholic in the heart of his addiction can consume amounts of alcohol that would kill a normal drinker. I have known people to drink a gallon a day of whiskey day after day. I myself used to drink so much that bartenders used to shake their heads in wonder. I had bartender give me nicknames like Mr. "T" because I would drink 9-12 Long Island iced teas and then get up and walk away without weaving or even appearing drunk.

The problem that people have in calling it a disease stems from the fact that the only long term treatment is a spiritual one, not a pill that comes in a bottle.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Genetics is a complicated matter, and gene expression is often more important that gene possession. There is ample medical evidence that alcoholics have a different physiological reaction to alcohol than non-alcoholics. There is some evidence suggesting (but not proving) that this different physiological difference pre-dates actual alcohol use (i.e. isn't just an after-effect of alchohol consumption by people who were physiologically the same as non-alcoholics before they began consuming alcohol). What is perfectly clear is that regardless of your genetic make-up or gene expression patterns, you will not become an alcoholic if you never start drinking alcohol. Our society would do well to stop accepting alcohol consumption as a normal part of everday life.

[longtermmemmory]

Folks the real issue here is the fact the DEFENSE ATTORNEY did not present evidence to establish it is a disease.

The attorney needed to introduce the predicate to show "disease".

This is NOT that controversial. Without the proper groundwork the attorney was essentially arguing effect without cause.

Each case HAS to be tried individually. If this lawyer was challenging the breathalyzer or blood test a expert would be required.

Seriously the attoney could have even moved, written motion to really do it right, for the court to take judicial notice that the DSM has alcholism listed as a disease.

This is a rookie mistake on the lawyers part and now the MSM is going to misrepresent it all over the place.

[longtermmemmory]

much of the reason alcholism was declared "a disease" is so insurance could pay for treatement.

This is NOT a disease issue and misrepresented by the MSM. This is the lawyer not laying a proper foundation to his argument.

This is a rookie lawyer error, NOT a bad by the judge.

ANY judge would have made the same ruling for not laying the proper predicate. No evidence, no win.

[ChildOfThe60s]

A FIB (or atrial fibrilation)

I did have ablation done, but about 30% of the time it does not work and I unfortunately fell in that group.

However, the medication has be very effective. I am on Rythmol and nothing else.

FReepmail me if you want to talk further.

[GovernmentShrinker]

And the Judge has what kind of medical degree?

I don't think it matters. Giving a common "vice" like this status as a legal defense really ought to be a matter for the state legislature. It's absurd to expect judges to evaluate something like this, when medical experts differ widely, and unfair for the legal result to vary depending upon which judge an accused person happens to land in front of.

More and more behaviors are being found by medical science to have a genetic basis, or some other basis over which the individual can exercise no control. What the criteria should be for accepting such conditions as a legal defense, is a political question. It wouldn't surprise me if medical science soon found a clearly identifiable organic brain disorder that child rapists have, that accounts for their virtually 100% recidivism rate. But it would not automatically follow from such a finding that child rapists shouldn't be convicted and punished for their crimes.

[ChildOfThe60s]

yep, the rationale for defining alcoholism as a disease can be applied to just about any behavior if desired.

And since all of us deviate from the clinical "norm" in various ways, we can thus abdicate responsibility for any problem we have.

Obviously, some of us are more predisposed to certain behaviors than others. But if you hop on that slippery slope of logic, anarchy would reign.

[colorado tanker]

It is a disease. But recognizing one has this disease comes with the responsibility to get sober and work a sobriety maintenance program.

I think the judge made a poor choice of words, but wanted to point out that this woman has a choice whether she wants to deal with her disease or not and she made a poor choice that she will have to pay for.

[backtothestreets]

Associating alcoholism and drug addiction with disease is one of the least helpful things anyone can do for these people. It allows them to present an easy excuse for their behavior.

We had our share of alcoholics in my family, and I could have easily walked that road my entire life, had I chosen it. I was a heavy drinker in my teens, and by the time I hit legal age I was putting away a fifth to a quart of Scotch every night.

By my mid-twenties I was doing some rather critical self analysis and didn't like what I was doing to myself. Nowadays I hardly ever consume alcohol. What changed me wasn't sympathy from anyone, but hard choices and the reality of how my drinking was hindering my life. It wasn't a disease. I wasn't cured. I just made better choices.

This judge shouldn't have backed down from her original statement that alcoholism is not a disease. Alcoholism is a self-inflicted injury, much like the bruise one gets from hitting a thumb with a hammer. The bruise will go away when you stop hitting the thumb with the dang hammer. Calling alcoholism a disease leads people, especially the alcoholic, to believe they had nothing to do with their plight.

[fish hawk]

Two big lies: Alcoholism is a disease and some are born with queer genes.

These are excuses for liberals not to have to be responsible for their actions.

[fish hawk]

Islam is a disease. Therefore you cannot hold it against them when they cut peoples heads off or blow up buses.

[Alberta's Child]

Believe me -- if my circumstances were even just slightly different than they are, I could certainly see myself being an alcoholic. This is precisely why I view it as a behavioral issue more than a "disease."

[Rightfootforward]

I'm always amused by the number of people who decide, or seemingly need to believe, they know more about the nature of alcoholism than do scientific researchers and learned members of the American Medical Association, The American Psychiatric Association, and the World Health Organization. All of which have identified and categorized alcoholism as a disease. Alcoholics didn't declare that to be so, medical and psychiatric organizations did. And they didn't do it because they were trying to "be nice" to alcoholics. They did it because alcoholism fits well within the disease model used across the board. Take it or leave it, like it or not, it is so.

Though the cause(s) of alcoholism have yet to be fully understood by the scientific community, it is considered most akin to diabetes. Causal factors of diabetes have yet to be identified, yet no one ever seems to feel the need to debate whether or not it is a valid illness. Nor do they tend to blame diabetics for being ill. Yes, I'm attempting to illustrate a parallel. And no, it won't be helpful to those whose personal fears about, and resentments towards alcoholism are such that they preclude rational thought.

One last try. I thank God that my dear diabetic friend -- a wise and brilliant man who has been insulin dependent for more than 30 years -- has never felt the need to be smarter, or stronger, or intellectually superior to his disease. Because, of course, he'd be very, very dead.

We sometimes talk about our respective diseases. He knows he'll never be able to successfully control or negotiate with sugar again. In my case, though I've been sober since Nixon was in office, I'll never be able to safely drink again. Is that because we don't live with diseases? No. It's because we acknowledge they exist and choose to stay alive.

[Alberta's Child]

I don't have an actual source from that -- I thought it was something that was fairly commonly understood (I seem to recall reading or hearing about it during the 2000 campaign).

[xcamel]

Please refer to post #93 - I haven't seen it said better.

[Alberta's Child]

I'm always amused by the number of people who decide, or seemingly need to believe, they know more about the nature of alcoholism than do scientific researchers and learned members of the American Medical Association, The American Psychiatric Association, and the World Health Organization.

See Post #43. The scientific researchers and learned members of many so-called "professional organizations" are often nothing more than political lobbying groups. Many of these groups have a huge financial stake in their "scientific research," and they sold their souls long ago for the almighty dollar.

If you have any doubt about this, just pick a specific topic of interest that has been studied extensively by one of these groups and discuss it with a competent, respected professional who is willing to speak frankly on the subject. You'll be amazed at how many doctors, for example, will privately contradict many things that the American Medical Association presents as medical facts.

The AMA, APA, and WHO are no more competent on this subject than Mothers Against Drunk Driving is about the subject of drunk driving.

[Charles H. (The_r0nin)]

This is a good example of the growth of "weasel words" (a term coined by F.A. Hayek to describe words that suck the meaning out of other words and phrases, like weasels do to eggs). A disease is normally defined to include genetic malformations that interrupt the normal functioning of the body or its organs. Terming alcoholism as a disease stretches the phrase "normal functioning of the body" from its original reference to the physical mechanics of body function to the much more ephemeral mental "functioning" of a person. This empowers doctors and, more importantly, the psuedo-scientists in psychology, but it does not accurately reflect the true meaning of disease.

Most importantly, I think you cannot limit the discussion to alcohol. If there is a genetic predisposition, it is not to the chemical of alcohol per se, but rather as an "addictive personality." One of the surest signs of an addict is to ask him/her about the first time they tried their drug of choice (alcohol or otherwise). Most people, if they remember at all, usually only remember instances of drug introduction either factually or because of the circumstances (i.e., my Dad gave me a drink at Thanksgiving, or my girlfriend wanted me to try ecstasy on our third date, etc.). But addicts almost always describe a very different experience. First, almost all have very strong memories of exactly when or where they first tried their drug of choice, followed by a reaction at the time akin to "Where has this been all my life!"

This difference is very probably genetic, meaning that some people are more likely to become addicted to drugs than others. In fact, I would argue that most addicts would have become addicted to something even had they not found their drug of choice. However this proclivity is not a disease, in the truest sense of the word. It is a "mental illness," a term that has less to do with disease and much more to do with behavior and self control (wherever that lack of self control or behavior comes from)...

[longtermmemmory]

THAT is the point!

The Judge needs to see the evidence BECAUSE she can't take the attorney's word alone at the EVIDENTIARY hearing. Even if the Judge was an MD, the ATTORNEY was supposed to provide the predicate for the conclusion.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ALCHOLISM THIS IS ABOUT PROVIDING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM OF DISEASE!

If anything the defendant has an ineffective assistance of counsel claim for this lawyer error.

[JAKraig]

Alcoholism is a disease of the mind and the body.
______________________________________________________


If this is true then so is Obesity, smoking, shaking your leg or whatever.

Just because you are hooked on addictive behavior does not mean you have succumbed to a disease.

If you commit suicide you don't have a disease, you have succumb to destructive behavior that may or may have been brought on by chemical or emotional problems.

If you drink because it feels good or makes you happy or whatever you have to realize that it makes most of us happy or feel better or something. When I was drinking the first thing I would do in the morning, before going to the bathroom or getting a smoke was to have a little glass of bourbon to get rid of the shakes and cobwebs. Every morning I decided to get rid of the shakes, every day at lunch I drank a six pack because I liked it. It made me feel good. It would still make me feel good but I have decided to not do it. AA helped, no doubt, but I made the decision.

[CaptainK]

Alcoholism is self medication for depression. The heredity factor in families is not the alcoholism but depression. Unlike a true progressive disease like cancer the "cure" is immediate when you decide to stop filling the cup.