Posted on 08/10/2005 11:25:50 AM PDT by JZelle
RICHMOND -- Civil liberties lawyers have appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to allow a Wiccan priestess to offer prayers before a public board's meetings. Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who customarily open the board's meetings with a religious invocation. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the suburban Richmond county. In their petition, received by the court yesterday, American Civil Liberties Union lawyers accuse the federal appeals court of trying to "obscure with legal smoke and mirrors" Chesterfield's preference for mainline religions. "Although Establishment Clause jurisprudence may be beset with conflicting tests, uncertain outcomes and ongoing debate, one principle has never been compromised ... that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another," ACLU attorneys wrote in their 13-page filing. County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
For all meaningful purposes, Wicca is considered a religion in our society. The IRS considers it legit. The military has Wiccan chaplains. You can be buried in Arlington cemetary in a Wiccan ceremony.
Some people might not consider Wicca a true religion, but our society has extended Wicca the same protections as Christianity.
in neither case did I feel that either party was acting out of a love for their alternative religion , or out of a desire to preserve religious diversity, but in an attempt to push their views into the faces of the majority present and outrage or hurt them
That is interesting but not relevant. You cannot extrapolate from your own experience and use that limited experience to deny one religion the rights enjoyed by others.
"I think the way to go is simply to forgoe the swearing in and use the threat of perjury prosecution against lying. "
I fully agree, I'm just thinking "baby steps".
Exactly. Wicca has already passed FormerLib's test.
What the ROMANS said about the early Christians and I qoute
"First of all, (Christians) Wiccans are not a religious sect. They are a bunch of (wankers with only one god,ick ) sexually confused, (ok this one was the same)birkenstock wearing , (flaggelating)henna tattoo getting, (believers in wine turning into blood)patchouli-scented, (Fish eating on Friday)Cherry Garcia eating, (worshipping in catacomb losers) tree-hugging losers, (with jesus fish on the back of their carts)who think that if they wear enough (rags and sack cloths) black and say the (right prayers) right incantations, the (Lord of Hosts) lord of darkness will appear and get them (Money, fame, salvation, a wife you name it god can do it)a date. That is why you never see blond (gladiator)cheerleader types (going to church)going for the occult.
Second, fine if they want to say their little prayers to some (God)goddess or (his Son)a fern or whatever, let them. However you'd have to give the opportunity to every mental patient and crackpot out there.
Wicca does not fit the definition of "a religion" period.
It is not cohesive, has no set of principles, every practitioner is independent of every other practitioner.
I know of those who claim to practice "wicca". Crazy lonely cat lady comes to mind.
Just to keep this legal, the santarians do not have similar problems with their animal sacrifices when they conflict with zoning laws.
There are acceptable limits. Human sacrifice is outlawed despite some "very sincere" people who believe in it as part of their religion. Canibalism is not allowed despite some "very sincere" people who believe in it as part of their religion.
It is as looney as the "gaea" envirowakos who believe the earth is a living INTELLIGENT organism capable of thought. Christianity was built upon a prior religion and has been demonstrated over time, a dictionary definition of religion.
It is not an issue of "knowing right". It is simple the fact that Wica is a scam to get one laid. It was a scam at the inception by Mr. Gardner, and it is a scam today.
I bet this woman believes her mood ring is a religious symbol too.
The right to speak at a public meeting is the right to spread the message of the specific church.
Free advertising. With the government's stamp of approval implicit.
You don't get to decide that Wicca isn't a "real" religion for the purposes of the government.
If you don't like it, don't follow it. But you don't get to decide for the state.
The perception that public prayer or public religious speech is "free advertising" says more about your attitude towards people of faith than anything else. I guess you're all for free speech unless it's religious in nature. The left is full of your kind.
"Just because someone claims to follow another faith doesn't mean that we can recognize it as a religion. Wicca is one that clearly fails that test in our society."
Flatly not true. For you and some apperantly thats the case, but the U.S. government has acknowledged Wicca as a religion, legally on par with Christianity. I'm not sure what you mean by society, but you aren't referring to the U.S.
Also, from a legal standpoint, you might want to rethink not recognizing Wicca as a religion. If Wicca is not a religion, then Wiccan documents COULD be posted on courthouse lawns. Somthing I think we can both agree should not happen.
Ah, insults. Better than honest debate, eh?
You cannot deny that allowing one religious group to speak in a public forum grants a certain ligitimacy or prestige upon it, can you? And if that's granted to one, is it right to deny it to others just because the others don't share your personal faith?
God in heaven, man, I have to run my brain into exegetical overdrive to get from "I doubt the motives of some who pray in public" to "Therefore, I intend to deny them the right to their religion." I am Christian, and I doubt the motives of many Christians who pray in public.
I was--or had thought I was--commenting on individual motives, not the constitutionality of their actions. It seems that it's getting harder for people to distinguish between the two.
Well, I'm sorry if I misread your intent.
But when you post on a thread about a city denying the right of some religions to participate in the prayer before a public meeting, and post doubts on whether followers of that faith really believe what they say they believe, I think confusions are understandable.
Thank you for the clarification. I apologize if you were offended by my misunderstanding.
Doesn't the Board usually invite someone to give the benediction? That's the way that I've always seen it work. Seems the witch's real problem is that no one wants to invite her to the party.
But then again, no one really has a right to be invited so she has no right to inflict her prayers on the community in that particular setting.
Perhaps she should run for a position on the Board? That would settle the whole matter now, wouldn't it?
But to be a speaker at that meeting requires an invitation, and being a speaker is what we are talking about.
No one's denying her anything but an invitation to this particular forum.
What about you? Did YOU invite HER to your last party? If not, you're just as guilty of discrimination as the Board is.
A town board couldn't pass rules that only people who supported a certain initiative by the town board would be allowed to speak. They would have to give opposing views equal time, or at least institute a first-come, first-speak policy.
This is more or less the same situation. If the town board wants to allow prayer at the opening of its sessions, it needs to set up some sort of neutral system to determine who gets to speak.
Perhaps. But government bodies are subject to different rules than private organizations. When it comes to religion, they can't get around the 1st Amendment by simply refusing to invite Wiccans to pray.
But then again, no one really has a right to be invited so she has no right to inflict her prayers on the community in that particular setting.
It's all or nothing. The government doesn't have to allow prayers by anyone. Once it does, though, it has to allow prayers by everyone
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