Gaza Disengagement/Expulsion Live Thread

FR live thread | 7/14/2005 | none

[adam_az]

you said

" The fact that you'd include him says more about your views than the general views of the man in Israel."

I was responding to the question "Let me rephrase this: who do Israeli's consider their greatest hero?"

I threw out a list of popular names. You're reading way too much into what I said.

Lighten up, Frances.

[adam_az]

"Isn't that the Clinton who vowed to take a rifle and haul his sorry ass over to the Jordan River?"

Aug 2, 2002

"If Iraq came across the Jordan River, I would grab a rifle and get in the trench and fight and die," the ex-president said to wild applause at a Jewish fund-raiser in Toronto.

[E Rocc]

I was responding to the question "Let me rephrase this: who do Israeli's consider their greatest hero?"

I threw out a list of popular names. You're reading way too much into what I said.

Kahane would be a popular name as one of Israel's greatest heroes? I really tend to doubt that. His legacy organization is banned, and the party that sanitized his ideology just enough to be elgible to run can't even make the electoral threshold.

He didn't belong on that list.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

Aug 2, 2002

"If Iraq came across the Jordan River, I would grab a rifle and get in the trench and fight and die," the ex-president said to wild applause at a Jewish fund-raiser in Toronto.

LOL! Typical Clintonian dissembling. Iraq would never have reached the Jordan, because the minute they crossed the Jordanian border Israel would have joined Jordan's defense under the 1994 treaty.

-Eric

[Alouette]

both traded land for peace, removing settlements as part of the process.

Peace??? Yeah,right. Excuse me, but what is the other side doing as part of this "process"? They are not making "peace." Not even the latte-slurpers on Sheinkin Street are that delusional.

[E Rocc]

Peace is the objective here.

There haven't been too many attacks lately. Perhaps Abbas is finally asserting control.

We'll see what happens after disengagement is done. I think we can agree that this is going to be a compelling and draining process, requiring all of Israel's efforts.

Personally, I think the US should have provided troops to secure the areas in Gaza adjoining the settlements, defending them from Palestinian attack. We're on good terms with Abu Mazen, and Hamas has gone out of its way to avoid attacking us in the past.

-Eric

[Alouette]

There haven't been too many attacks lately. Perhaps Abbas is finally asserting control.

It's the Wall, stupid.

[Petronski]

And when the palies get the missiles to lob over that wall, effectively, then Abbas won't be "asserting control" anymore.

[Alouette]

Personally, I think the US should have provided troops

This ranks right up there with your comment of yesterday that "giving Palis complete control of the Temple Mount will give them the newly-found responsibility to avoid dropping huge blocks of concrete on Jews praying at the Western Wall" or some such pigwash.

Is there some contest going on for "Stupidest Comment Even Made by a Regular Poster to Free Republic" that I haven't heard about?

[E Rocc]

There haven't been too many attacks lately. Perhaps Abbas is finally asserting control.

It's the Wall, stupid.

That's a big part of it too. You may recall that I support the wall. Now they can build another one.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

Personally, I think the US should have provided troops

This ranks right up there with your comment of yesterday that "giving Palis complete control of the Temple Mount will give them the newly-found responsibility to avoid dropping huge blocks of concrete on Jews praying at the Western Wall" or some such pigwash.

Why is either stupid? The US pushed Sharon towards disengagement. Why not help the IDF make it go smoothly?

I've never understood why a high chickenwire fence wasn't put on top of the wall to protect the worshippers below. But if Palestine wants to become a real nation, they have real-nation responsibilities. One of the most basic of those is keeping one's people from attacking other nations.

-Eric

[agrace]

Don't get me wrong, I think he was nuts to do what he did. And imo, it showed he didn't have ENOUGH respect for his Jewish brethren.

Funny how a supposed brilliant military mind could be so shortsighted in this situation. And like adam_az said in another post, it wasn't his to give away. Which he did unilaterally it seems.

[Alouette]

if Palestine wants to become a real nation, they have real-nation responsibilities. One of the most basic of those is keeping one's people from attacking other nations.

They have shown absolutely no inclination to do so. None. Zero. And do you know why? Because there is no penalty when they attack Jews.

If you believe some kind of magical transformation is going to take place once the Israelis leave, you are living in the land of lala.

Speaking of giving these savages a "state" they could have declared themselves a "state" at any time during the last five years and more countries (including the US) would have recognized their state than currently recognize Israel.

But they have not declared themselves a "state." Why? Is it because they don't feel ready to take on the weighty responsibility of statehood? (hahaha)

No, it's because they want THIS for a state:

[adam_az]

" Kahane would be a popular name as one of Israel's greatest heroes? I really tend to doubt that. His legacy organization is banned, and the party that sanitized his ideology just enough to be elgible to run can't even make the electoral threshold."

"He didn't belong on that list. "

I disagree - many Israelis I've met admire the man and his ideas about foreign policy, but are not orthodox and would never vote Herut.

[Polybius]

1. Extermination……………Nazi Germany’s choice with the Jews" .......... This is the second time you have made a similar statement. What war did European Jews lose to the Germans? When did the European Jews fight the Germans? Your statement makes it sound (inadvertantly I will credit) as if the German's had to "exterminate" a warring Jewish insurgency in their midsts.

Did I say anything at all about "warring"?

Did I give any justification or reason?

Did what I wrote not include everything down to "The Nazis did it because they were evil bastards and they just felt like doing it"?

If you prefer another example without any modern sensitivities how about:

Extermination……………The Athenian's choice with the Melians during the Peloponnesian War.

Look it up.

**********************

............... As to your other points,you have omitted two important pieces. "Attacks against Israel will be met with air power, armor and artillery. No more foot patrols in hate-filled Arab streets.' A change to that tactic could have been implemented with Jewish communities in Gaza. It did not for the reasons it will not occur after disengagement -- civilian deaths,and the humanitarian and PR issues they elicit.

You point focuses on the tactical while completely ignoring the larger strategic issue that a small nation with a small population has no hope of ever maintaining a perpetual occupation of a larger hostile population that doubles its size every generation.

Israel has much more justification for responding to attacks from a hostile non-occupied neighbor than for responding to attacks from an occupied population fighting that occupation.

The strategic lesson to take away is that perpetual occupation, like grabbing a tiger by the tail, is a guarantee of future disaster.

**************

.................... "These “Palestinian Arabs” had a lot to be angry about. According to Peretz’s 1954 article, “Today (1954), nearly half the new Jewish immigrants live in homes abandoned by Arabs. They occupy nearly 400 Arab towns and villages. About a quarter of the buildings now in use in Israel formerly were Arab property. The Arabs left over 10,000 shops and stores in Jewish hands. The Israel Custodian of Absentee Property took over more than 4,000,000 dunams of former Arab land, or nearly 60% of the county’s cultivable area. This was nearly two and a half times the total Jweish-owned property at the time the State of Israel was established and includes most of its olive orchards, a large part of its fruit and vegetable crop land and almost half the citrus.”

Jews decimated in Hitler's Europe and Jews kicked out of Arab lands they had lived in for centuries, forced to leave with nothing despite extensive wealth, had "a lot to be angry about" too. Jews lost more than the Palis ever did. Whole families wiped out. Entire cultures destroyed. ....... But they moved on and made new lives. They did not become perpetual refugees, haters and killers. More Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Arabs from Israel.

In that I totally agree with you.

If you read over my post, you will see that I said that I was very sorry for them...............Right up until I go back and consider their dreams of "massacre" and "extermination" on the eve of the 1948 war.

For whatever reason, these people are HOMICIDAL MANIACS.

' Comparing them to the nice Jewish families that picked themselves up and rebuilt their lives after World War II while these people became hate-filled, revenge-craving lunatics only reinforces my point that a perpetual occupation of such people who double in number every generation is not a viable strategic option.

**************

I heard Victor Davis Hanson on John Bachelor show tonight. He made a very similar point about retreat to the one you made. He said that retreat, though sometimes necessary, is always treated as a 'victory' by the other side.

So be it.

Do you want to win your military objective or merely believe you have achieved your military objective?

To bring back the example of Napoleon's Russian Campaign, Napoleon believed he was victorious on his advance to Moscow. Napoleon believed he had won the war when he captured Moscow.

Napoleon treated the entire campaign as a victory right up until it dawned on him that his "victory" was actually a trap that ended up almost totally annihilating one of the greatest armies ever assembled up to that point in history.

[TheSpottedOwl]

If there are Christians in Palestine, they need to leave for their own safety. As for children, there are many living there. What do you do with people who dress their babies up in jihad halloween costumes? Those poor kids were born into the grave.

Here's an awful thought: those children could technically be taken and adopted out. However, the nature vs nurture comes into play. Centuries of hate-fed dogma cannot be eliminated in the first generation of liberated kids. We see those children and believe them innocent, but are they really? Can they be saved, without endangering their adoptive parents, and their new surroundings?

[TheSpottedOwl]

"If Iraq came across the Jordan River, I would grab a rifle and get in the trench and fight and die," the ex-president said to wild applause at a Jewish fund-raiser in Toronto.

That's the quote! Such a liar, but then we all know that.

[Txsleuth]

I just heard on Fox News that Fox news has learned that the UN--who is supposed to be "neutral" (ha ha)....had contributed much $$$$$$$$ to the Palestinian campaign that says "today GAZA, tommorrow Jerusalem"....

Of course, when asked about it UN officials were "aghast" that this happened, and will "check it out"! blech

[Jrabbit]

And I heard this morning that Sharon is asking us for more money to "dislocate" the settlers. Shouldn't he have planned better when he decided to appease the terrorists?

Nothing the UN does shocks me anymore.....worthless scum

[Txsleuth]

OH, dear, Sharon is going to get the "Bush" treatment---blaming him for "not planning for the peace"..blech..

But, you are correct--He should have realized, but then again the UN is funding the Palestinians apparently, so I guess Sharon comes to us...

But, didn't the US give a bunch of $$$$ to the Palestinians not too long ago?

I am really, really hating this whole thing. I am surprised though, that there hasn't been more violence by now.

Oh, dear, Fox just showed footage of the Palestinians "celebrating" on the beach at GAZA...reminds me of when they were celebrating on 9/11 about our dead people!