Posted on 08/16/2005 12:09:54 PM PDT by proud_yank
" It's easier to say "Look, let's trust the Americans. They do have a histor of abiding my their arrangements: look at softwood lumber, they do keep their words" "
Canadians put too much faith in process and bureaucracy....this will get settled in due time one way or another and it will be settled fairly, but it will wind it's way through our process and it will take time.
Conservatives in Canada are even less conservative than conservatives in the U.S. Conservatives in Canada cannot touch the social safety net.....no way, no how.
I feel your pain though....Our president has now set the precedent of out of control spending and government growth as conservative "principles" - so the title "conservative" is as worthless in Canada as it is in the U.S.
I'm a shrink government, cut taxes conservative - a Reagan conservative, if you will. That brand of conservatism is a tiny fraction of the 34% of conservatives in canada.
Actually, it's not, It's somewhere between a third and a half of the 34% (and if you count moderates, more than half, possibly up to 60%). I am an admirer of Reagan myself and I am a small government, free market, ideology free, strong sovereignty conservative. In theory. In practice, I will settle for what I can get.
And conservatives in Canada are not less conservative, they just have lower expectations. We've been ignored and losing power for 40 years almost now.
We don't put that much faith in process and bureaucracy. In fact, the problem is, Canadians don't put that much faith into anything at all. If you think America is apathetic, you should see most of Canada. Huge portions of Liberal support comes from people who are right wing but don't want to rock the boat and have been made to be afraid of the Conservative party.
But we do put faith in honor and integrity. A man's word is important, because it establishes whether you want to do business with him or not.
We're also largely powerless internationally. Thus, all we can do is trust in other's words.
And I am not so sure this thing will be settled fairly in the end. America doesn't stand anything to gain really by acting fairly, except bettering its name and validating some Canadian allies. But short term profit dictates that they keep the money and just put the bird.
But just because we can't do anything about it doesn't mean we should either ignore it or forget it. Things always change, and things won't always be this way. Conservatives WILL make a major comeback. Whether its the separation of the West, or a majority government 30 years from now, or whatever.
And its important to stay true to who and what you are. That's what being a conservative is all about. A conservative without principles of integrity and responsibility is just another kind of liberal.
"America didn't enter WWI until 1917. Or WWII until almost 1942. Canada was in WWI in 1914. And in 1939. We were there when Britain needed us. "
Today's Canada is not your fathers Canada. If it ever went to the mat (and it won't) your Commonwealth affiliation wouldn't help Canada one bit.
You (Canada collectively) never has been as decent a country as the US. That's not to say that there aren't notable exceptions, even many notable exceptions on both sides, but still that's simply the way it is today and always has been. I'm not intending to make any enemies of Canadians. You - as a country - are anti-American, and an unreliable ally. You dislike us already. I like the Canadians that I meet here in the US. They generally hate what your country has become. That is why they are here. They ALL work hard and prosper.
To hear Canadians like you try to pull the "we won't sell you our xxxx" BS is comical and typically Canadian. Still I object to it, and you should too.
"You posted the 1st "We'll invade Canada and block the sea ports" tripe. We just responded to this nonsense."
Sorry, you got the wrong hoser with this statement. It wasn't me.
It sounds like things are pretty much out of hand at those universities.
What terrible things has America done besides not liking the "efficient" (i.e. soviet-style, centrally planned) forestry that Canada practices? I hate vague references.
I didn't say that BS. I said I'd be inclined to support an idea like that if the U.S. didn't act fairly. You don't have to enter agreements, but you should have to follow them. If you don't abide by those agreements, why should we? I don't think its the fair thing to do, but I am hardpressed to think of any leverage Canada can exert over the U.S. other than energy trade or even any response we could make that would get attention.
Now, I presume you mean modern Canada when you say "You (Canada collectively). First, I disagree that it has never been as decent a country as the US. But that's another issue. Most parts of the country aren't anti-American. Stay out of the big cities of BC and Quebec, stay out of Toronto and Ottawa and much of Manitoba and you will find a very pro-American country.
Most Canadians hate what Canada has become, to one degree or another. The Liberals manage to keep winning by playing off all sides and scaring moderates. Numerically, they're not much more powerful than us Conservatives; their numbers are just arranged better for voting purposes (since we operate on ridings here: and they get heavy support from the cities, which have more ridings than the rural and suburban areas).
And the "we won't sell you our xxxx" BS as you put it is not typically Canadian. Every country does it. America has the "We won't buy French wines and cheese", France does the "we won't buy British beef", Russia says "we won't buy German cars", Iran says "we won't sell America oil". Australia says "no uranium for India", and so on and so forth in response to any number of petty stimuli. Thats what it is, it is a petty response. nothing more, nothing less. Not unprovoked, usually, and almost always far from fair or reasonable, but that's besides the point.
You mean Jefferson Republic I think.
We do defend ourselves, and we're become aggressive these days, since it's gone too far.
From my perspective: I think its terrible America didn't enter WWII earlier, and some of the stuff pulled in Central America was less than awesome. The massacres of natives (though we did that too) wasn't great either. Nor was the funding of the Islamic fundamentalists in some places, or propping up of some regimes. Most countries, especially powerful countries, are guilty of terrible things at some point in their history. It's nothing special. America has some stains, but it also, by and large, is the world's greatest defender of freedom and democracy and remains the land of opportunity.
My friend's grandfather was a general, but he wasn't 50 years ago. Very conservatve, but he had very little respect for the Marines (I think it was the Marines at least), because when the Chinese came at Pyongyang, they run and left the Canadian company alone. The Canadians refused to join the defeat, and eventually won the battle, but it was terrible. They were surrounded on all sides and overrun, and at some points forced to call down fire on their own positions. So that's another thing, from his perspective.
Liberals still whine about Vietnam and Cuba. Though I am more sympathetic. The list could go on, but I think most people realize that their countries have done some pretty terrible things. In the case of America and Canada and Britain and Australia, the good outweighs the bad.
"I didn't say that BS."
Ok, I re-read your post. You didn't say "don't sell our xxxx to the U.S." You said:
"I hate to say it, but if America doesn't keep its end of the bargain, we should do what Layton suggests and put export taxes on gas, oil and uranium coming from Canada"
Same point though....cutting off your export nose to spite your economic face.
I think immigration is a bigger concern for Australia for the near future. And in the long run, China is a big threat to everybody.
Ultimately, all of the commonwealth and America is on the same side. We like democracy, and there are axises out there that are opposed to it. And sooner or later, all these countries will wake up. Hopefully it won't take something terrible, but it might.
Canada is the only country on Al-Queda's hit list not yet hit by a major terrorist attack.
Not necessarily. Oil is oging to become more precious, as is uranium. We have enough reserves to keep our country running smoothly for a couple of centuries if we sell to noone else.
You lose advantages of trade, but it might be an economic gain in the end.
And if America is as hostile to a Canadian alliance as this thread would indicate (although I don't believe that ;) and I trust America will do the right thing...eventually), then it might just be wortwhile. Cut precious exports generally, build a reserve, then sell later, at high tax and high price, when the demand is outrageous.
It's unethical, but not entirely impractical.
Also America and the Indians went to war. There was no Indian genocide in America except possibly in the California Gold Rush.
Most American Indians today are way ahead of Canadian Indians in their standard of living.
If Reagan had not acted in Central America, it would still be a major problem today.
That beautiful police state Cuba is not the fault of America. Over 100 Cubans landed on the beaches of the Florida Keys in one weekend during July. I wonder how many bodies there are on the floor of the Florida Straits. Just imagine setting off in an inner tube over 90 miles of ocean.
And the Vietnam War did not begin or end with the USA.
Actually, I wasn't thinking of 1980s central america. I was thinking 1930s and earlier. ;)
Also, not doing something is doing something. In Dante's hell, those who blew with the wind have their own little special place. Because in not choosing, they made a choice and did an action.
The Americans and the Indians might have gone to war, but the Americans did do some pretty terrible things to the Indians throughout American history, to be honest. I'm not saying it erases all the good things America has done. But the fact that they did it is fairly indisputable.
As I said, Canada did it too, so it's not like we're blameless. Pot to kettle and all that. But it happened.
And again, I am personally sympathetic to the American case for fighting in Vietnam.
As for Cuba, again, I am sympathetic. Liberals aren't. You asked, I answered.
And, you can quibble over the things I said, but Ill just post more and you'll be missing my basic point.
America and Canada and Britain and Australia have far from spotless records. But just because they've done some terrible things, that doesn't negate all the good things they've done too.
No country is blameless. Some are better than others nonetheless. America is one of those in my opinion, and in the opinion of most Canadian conservatives.
They have done it before.
I think George Bush was in in the oil business then.
Then Canada will likely buy oil and hoard. Think long term.
Oil will not last forever. And countries will still need it in the future for any number of reasons. So, it won't hurt those countries who produce it to make reserves.
These changes can happen fairly quickly, and now we are going from oil to natural gas in many areas, and guess what? Oil could last forever.
I doubt that, but its possible. Natural gas, with the exception of methane, which isn't often used, is not easily replaced, even when it is replaceable.
And by the way, huge swathes of forests were cut down when we used wood more heavily and with less forethought than we do now. Ontario, where I live, has a lot of second growth forests. They grew up on the abandoned farms; easy to tell whats original growth and whats second growth by size and variety of the trees.
In any case, I doubt oil will last forever; and I especially doubt whether sufficient reserves will last this century as a primary energy source. But, time will tell.
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