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In Explaining Life's Complexity, Darwinists and Doubters Clash
NY Times ^ | August 22, 2005 | KENNETH CHANG

Posted on 08/22/2005 3:29:51 AM PDT by Pharmboy

At the heart of the debate over intelligent design is this question: Can a scientific explanation of the history of life include the actions of an unseen higher being?

The proponents of intelligent design, a school of thought that some have argued should be taught alongside evolution in the nation's schools, say that the complexity and diversity of life go beyond what evolution can explain.

Biological marvels like the optical precision of an eye, the little spinning motors that propel bacteria and the cascade of proteins that cause blood to clot, they say, point to the hand of a higher being at work in the world.

In one often-cited argument, Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University and a leading design theorist, compares complex biological phenomena like blood clotting to a mousetrap: Take away any one piece - the spring, the baseboard, the metal piece that snags the mouse - and the mousetrap stops being able to catch mice.

Similarly, Dr. Behe argues, if any one of the more than 20 proteins involved in blood clotting is missing or deficient, as happens in hemophilia, for instance, clots will not form properly.

Such all-or-none systems, Dr. Behe and other design proponents say, could not have arisen through the incremental changes that evolution says allowed life to progress to the big brains and the sophisticated abilities of humans from primitive bacteria.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; behe; crevolist; darwinists; enoughalready; evolution; inteldesign; makeitstop
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To: RobRoy
Most of what is taught in astronomy can be called science. Most of what is taught on evolution is not.

Scientists don't remotely share your assessment, and their assessment is what counts (or rather, what should count) in public policy.

81 posted on 08/22/2005 9:20:05 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist

>>Scientists don't remotely share your assessment, and their assessment is what counts (or rather, what should count) in public policy.<<

Hogwash.

My statement stands.


82 posted on 08/22/2005 9:22:37 AM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenance (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: RobRoy
Your post is based on the false assumption that our beliefs about God actually control who he is.

We weren't talking of "who God is"; we were talking of how people behave.

The poster was indicating that a lack of religion would cause bad behavior. If that were the case, you'd think that scientists would be more religious than the U.S. prison population. Despite their widespread atheism, however, very few of them end up behind bars.

83 posted on 08/22/2005 9:25:34 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist
But rights are not a matter of contract. They follow ineluctably from taking human life as the standard of value. That's all there is to it! Now, you may say that not everyone has to take human life as their standard of value, and you'd be right. But such people are often easy to spot: criminals (value money above human life), totalitarians (value the state above human life), terrorists (value their creator above human life), animal-rights activists (value animal life above human life), greens (value "nature" above human life), etc. But the overwhelming majority of people take human life as their standard of value, whether they acknowledge it or not, so this is a much firmer foudation for the Rights of Man than any book or sect.

Your post is exactly the reason the founders of this country made a point of saying that "we are enowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights" for if we are not then our rights, the right to life among them, depends on which of your laundry list is in power.

By making it clear that these rights are inalienably ours they make it clear that it is righteous to crapcan any group coming to power that seeks to abridge them.

84 posted on 08/22/2005 9:26:20 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: longshadow

Gementria?


85 posted on 08/22/2005 9:26:36 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Physicist
Nyaa, nyaaaaa, nyaaaaaaa!!!
</creationism mode>
86 posted on 08/22/2005 9:26:46 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: RobRoy
Hogwash.

Interesting. Are you saying that most scientists agree with you, or that your opinion outweighs the sum of theirs on issues of science?

87 posted on 08/22/2005 9:28:04 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Pharmboy

If evolution doesn't happen, how do bacteria develop antibiotic resistance?


88 posted on 08/22/2005 9:38:05 AM PDT by Trimegistus
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To: Physicist

Anecdotal evidence only. We have "good" atheists and "bad" atheists, just like we have the same in the religious community.

There are volumes of biblical concepts touched in the "apparently" trite bumper sticker phrase "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."


89 posted on 08/22/2005 9:38:10 AM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenance (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: Trimegistus
Well, there are goats that don't have ears because they have developed in response to a freezing climate. There are goats with long pendulous ears because they act as an air conditioner in tropical climates.

But, you know, they're the same goat. Mr. Earless can marry Ms. Earful and they'll have kids.

Are these bacteria a new species? It's kind of hard to define such a thing when you only have one cell going on.

90 posted on 08/22/2005 9:43:54 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Physicist
re: Are you saying that most scientists agree with you, or that your opinion outweighs the sum of theirs on issues of science?)))

How heavy are these scientists?

Seriously, is this supposed to be a compelling argument, "I have more scientists than you do?"

91 posted on 08/22/2005 9:47:46 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: DesertSapper
Where do you think this "overwhelming majority of people" who "take human life as their standard of value" get that idea from? The answer is simple: Judeo-Christian morals.

The major religions of the ancient world (worship of Baal, Maloch, Adrammelech and Anammelech, etc) DID NOT value human life except as a sacrifice. Human sacrifice (including infants) was the norm.

That's just silly talk. You have completely ignored functional, working societies outside "the ancient world" (which you seem to have defined as solely existing in the middle east) that had no reference to the Judeo-Christian god.

For instance, if your version of history were true, neither China nor Japan would have existed in ancient history, and yet there is ample evidence that the Chinese and Japanese lived and thrived. What is your explanation for that?

92 posted on 08/22/2005 9:49:27 AM PDT by Chiapet (Cthulhu for President: Why vote for a lesser evil?)
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To: Physicist

I am saying your assertion is hogwash. First and formost, you did not say "some scientists," "most scientists" or even "a lot of scientists." You merely said "scientists." The assertion is absolutely false and was offered with no support.

It is merely a statement of opinion and I responded with a statement of opinion.

This is contradiction. I came here for an argument!


93 posted on 08/22/2005 9:53:01 AM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenance (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: NJ_gent
The 'Civil War' is an example of the Federal government overreaching its authority and enforcing its will via military force in complete violation of the concept of Federalism, the United States Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence. Slavery happened to be the issue North and South states were divided on most heavily at the time, but it could just as easily have been taxes or the price of milk. It was fueled by northern arrogance clashing with southern pride.
---
FYI, the Civil War was predominantly a private property issue. The 'property' being slaves.
Southerners supported states rights because the southern states would vote to allow slave owners to keep their 'property'.
94 posted on 08/22/2005 9:54:13 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
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To: longshadow
"Touched by His Noodly Appendage" placemarker.
95 posted on 08/22/2005 9:57:08 AM PDT by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: Trimegistus

No--I am a Darwinist. Never said evo doesn't happen. But at any rate, your bacterial example really shows natural selection rather than evolution per se.


96 posted on 08/22/2005 9:58:25 AM PDT by Pharmboy (There is no positive correlation between the ability to write, act, sing or dance and being right)
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To: gridlock
If we are not endowed with certain inalienable rights by our Creator, then all of our rights are the results of agreements between men, and can be removed just as easily by agreements to the contrary.

Short of God Himself coming down and enforcing these rights, I'd submit that it is, rather, the widespread belief in the sanctity of human rights which is their guarantor.

Where was this divine endowment of rights to be found prior to 1776?

97 posted on 08/22/2005 10:00:17 AM PDT by malakhi (America and her founding fathers were products of the Enlightenment.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

I'm feeling like a Barbie doll here.


98 posted on 08/22/2005 10:03:31 AM PDT by js1138 (Science has it all: the fun of being still, paying attention, writing down numbers...)
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To: longshadow
Numerology alongside Number Theory.

"Four elements" theory alongside the periodic table.

99 posted on 08/22/2005 10:06:02 AM PDT by malakhi (America and her founding fathers were products of the Enlightenment.)
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To: Pharmboy

read later bump


100 posted on 08/22/2005 10:07:42 AM PDT by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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