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STOCKGATE, the biggest scandal to hit the markets yet!
Investigate The SEC ^ | 6-1-05 | Kevin M West

Posted on 09/03/2005 8:02:05 PM PDT by abletruth

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To: abletruth

How is this differentiated from selling derivitives?


41 posted on 09/03/2005 9:35:39 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter
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To: SirJohnBarleycorn
Secondly, the far narrower allegation that some folks may not properly be enforcing the delivery-versus-payment rules in the margin regulations against their hedge fund customers is a matter for the SRO and SEC enforcement divisions - send them the evidence and if it holds up in enforcement proceedings, hang 'em by the yard arm, I say.

Take a look at the Reg. SHO lists. Fail-to-deliver's are supposed to closed out within 13 days, and companies have been on those lists for months. What do you do when the SRO's and the SEC enforcement divisions aren't doing their jobs? Wait for a catastrophe before somebody finally wakes up and does something about the problem?

Think of naked short selling as naked short writing:

Writing Naked Checks

I dropped off a check at my broker dealer to pay for my stock purchase, but asked him to not cash it.

"Don't worry", said I, "the check proves you are the beneficial owner of a block of money in my account and it is more convenient to keep the money in my account in electronic check form. I'll keep it safe for you."

My broker was insistent that he receive cash proceeds, so I told him that if he paid me a $40 handling fee and waited 4 - 6 weeks, I would pull his cash for him.

I explained to him that sometimes it isn't possible to pull the cash as there are actually more checks outstanding then cash available to honor those checks. Lucky for me, the regulators came out with a rule in January that I don't have to honor checks written before the beginning of the year as that could create financial hardship for me.

The rule tried to dissuade me from writing new bum checks - I'm supposed to put money in my account within 13 days, but I get around that by kiting checks with my buddies.

I asked him again. "Are you sure you want to pull your cash? Most of my other creditors are happy to keep my payment in electronic, check form.", but it seems he doesn't trust me and would rather he be the actual owner of the cash rather then just the beneficial owner.

For some reason, he was unhappy that some of the checks I had written were naked and were not backed by cash and he wanted to cash his first before the other creditors found out.

Folks, ask for your certificate, which proves you own your shares. In reg SHO companies, there aren't enough certs. to go around, so it will be "first come, first served".

***

There's this guy named Bob O' who is campaigning against my check writing practices. He's started a group, NCANCB, or the National Coalition Against Naked Check Buying.

He's a nut case who doesn't understand that most of the checks I don't honor are for crappy stocks that I bought. I mean if these companies were well run and well managed, I'd be happy to put up cash to back up my purchase, but it is definitely the companies' fault that people like me write bum checks to buy their shares.

I mean, if Bob O' had his way, I'd have to put up cash to honor all my checks and it would financially benefit the people I wrote those checks to.

NCANCB is all about putting money in the pockets of the naked check holders. It's all about financial benefit to them, without consideration of the hardships it might cause me.

42 posted on 09/03/2005 9:37:10 PM PDT by Retief
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To: Texas Songwriter
Derivatives are legally binding contracts between 2 parties.

Shares represent proportional ownership in a company, something along the lines of a title to an automobile.

The two are very different.

43 posted on 09/03/2005 9:38:33 PM PDT by SAJ
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To: the invisib1e hand

Look, I'm the first to consider going against the received wisdom when there is a reasonable argument to listen to. If someone will offer a coherent explanation of why short selling, in principle (apart from credit, suitability and enforcement issues), is bad for the markets or the economy generally, I'll listen to it. I have yet to hear it made.


44 posted on 09/03/2005 9:39:48 PM PDT by SirJohnBarleycorn
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To: wrathof59
all shorts are pond scum

I'm short 2000 barrels of crude oil. Am I pond scum ?

45 posted on 09/03/2005 9:41:33 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: SirJohnBarleycorn

Short selling is necessary. But not because a concensus of economists say that it is. It's just common business sense.


46 posted on 09/03/2005 9:42:02 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (we don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: staytrue
I'm short 2000 barrels of crude oil. Am I pond scum ?

you are if you spring a leak.

47 posted on 09/03/2005 9:43:00 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (we don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

You have the right screen name for this thread.


48 posted on 09/03/2005 9:45:25 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Hey, I like bashing the dismal scientists as much as the next guy, but economists are in fact experts in their field and we should pay some minimum amount of attention to what they say. My view of the Great Depression is essentially a failure by the powers that were to properly understand macroeconomics.


49 posted on 09/03/2005 9:46:38 PM PDT by SirJohnBarleycorn
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To: justshutupandtakeit

I'm short 2000 barrels of crude oil (2 futures contracts). I guess I'm naked because I did not borrow the crude and I don't own the crude. I do put up a margin requirement.

I believe I can short the sp500 index too. I can go short 1 contract which is about 250,000 dollars worth of stock. Further, I would be naked in that I did not borrow 250,000 dollars worth of sp stocks.


50 posted on 09/03/2005 9:47:00 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: Texas Songwriter
(more, sorry...) The reason they're different, and the reason why naked short selling is a major problem, is this:

There are only X number of shares issued for any given company. Say, 10 million, just to have a number. That's all there are, that's all that have been ''issued'', as the term goes. Fine. Suppose I own all these shares, sell them to you, and now you own them. Normal transaction, no problem.

However, suppose Willie Green comes along after getting off a train and wants to sell your company's shares short, let's say a million shares. OK, his brokerage tries to borrow the shares -- from you in this case, since you're the only owner of shares in your company -- and can't. Normally, that's the end of the story, and Willie goes about his other business.

In naked short selling, the brokerage goes ahead and executes Willie's order (first mistake, and criminal if it happens regularly), with someone buying the million (putative) shares that Willie's selling. Now, what does the scoreboard look like?

You own 10 million shares, and whoever was on the other side of Willie's transaction owns (or THINKS he owns) 1 million. Bang! A million shares have (notionally) been created out of thin air, and you, who own the company outright, didn't have a thing to say about it.

Derivatives, as noted, are a contract. They can be and are created and destroyed (''closed out'' is the usual term of art) on a daily basis, and in any quantity whatever that is satisfactory to the parties involved, and to the exchange on which the transaction takes place. VERY different beast.

Hope that little explanation is of some use to you!

51 posted on 09/03/2005 9:49:46 PM PDT by SAJ
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To: staytrue
I believe I can short the sp500 index too. I can go short 1 contract which is about 250,000 dollars worth of stock. Further, I would be naked in that I did not borrow 250,000 dollars worth of sp stocks.

but you're short the index so you'll either have to buy it back or deliver the shares by contractual obligation. the demand for the shares is built into the contract. it's not "naked shorting."

52 posted on 09/03/2005 9:50:27 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (we don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: wrathof59
all shorts are pond scum

And all pump and dump longs are angels, right? Get a clue before making idiotic blanket statements like that.

53 posted on 09/03/2005 9:50:42 PM PDT by bluefish (Holding out for worthy tagline...)
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To: staytrue

My comments were limited to STOCK shorting. As to the scenario you describe I would have to do further analysis as to whether things are borrowed with the knowledge of their owners or it they are the result of fraudulent brokerage activities.

But at first glance I don't see shorting futures contracts to necessarily to be an abrogation of fiduciary responsibility.


54 posted on 09/03/2005 9:51:57 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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To: staytrue
Shorting derivatives (and a futures contract IS a derivative) is absolutely not the same thing as shorting stock shares, period. A derivative is a contract. Stock shares represent ownership, and there's only so much ownership to go around, for any given company.

You're not naked, you're just short crude. Buy it back any day you like, and the transaction is settled, done, finis. Naked stock shorts never get settled...and that's the difference AND the problem.

55 posted on 09/03/2005 9:52:45 PM PDT by SAJ
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To: abletruth

Wow!! I don't know how serious of a problem naked short selling is, but the large number of exclamation points in this article causes me to question how seriously I should take it!!!! The alarmist tone reminds me of articles found in Weekly World News!!!


56 posted on 09/03/2005 9:54:18 PM PDT by bluefish (Holding out for worthy tagline...)
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To: abletruth
I know little of the financial markets but I grew suspicious of shenanigans during the /Clinton administration and especially of Robert Rubins involvement. It was during that time that we had the Enron, Global Crossing, Worldcom, et all, as well as the tech market runup and bust.

I have always been of the opinion that the left sees "capitalism" as crooked and, as a result, when they get power they are truly crooked. The tricks taught by the Harvard economists to the Russians during their transition from Communism to free markets is another example. They showed the oligarchs how to grab the good stuff cheap and control the rest through supposed free market principles. Instead they were studies in corruption.

What part is George Soros likely playing in the games being described here? The left is trying to bring the country down by abusing our freedoms and exploiting our markets.

Seems foolish on their part to destroy what they want to control but they are also playing footsie with the Islamist terrorists who will destroy them, too, if they can.

I know how conpsiratorial that sounds but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that supports it.
57 posted on 09/03/2005 9:54:55 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: the invisib1e hand
I have thought this through quite thoroughly and recognize short selling as a fraud perpetrated on real investors. These people have NO incentive to knowingly "lend" their stocks and don't.

There is no doubt that those sophisticated enough to profit by it can rationalize many facts away including the fact that by lowering the return on stocks held by real investors the speculators raise the cost of capital and lower capital formation by discouraging investors.

As I said there are legitimate ways of speculating against stock prices without cheating the owners of stock.

You can keep your pretentious platitudes and save them for some 20 year old, son.
58 posted on 09/03/2005 9:59:33 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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To: SAJ

As I said other countries have banned short selling in their stock exchanges so that is not an issue. There is no doubt that this is the activity of specialists.


59 posted on 09/03/2005 10:01:37 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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To: abletruth
Oh gee, the unethical speculative white collar criminal "looters" are going to loose their imaginary money yet again.
Shocked and appalled, I am NOT.
Sympathy level-zero.
60 posted on 09/03/2005 10:08:00 PM PDT by sarasmom (Even if all else is wrong in your world,, find comfort in the fact that I am not in charge!)
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