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Oil Companies Limited Refining Capacity to Drive Up Gas Prices
U.S. Newswire/FTCR ^ | 09/07/2005

Posted on 09/08/2005 7:01:08 AM PDT by cogitator

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To: MAD-AS-HELL
Most gas stations are refilled about once every 3 or 4 days (that's my understanding.) Price cycles would be related to that. I agree with everything that you said in your reply and undoubtedly, there is some gouging going on. I welcome investigations into that. On 9/11, we had several stations that raised the price of gas by over $1.50 per gallon in less than 2 hours. Our governor issued a statement at that time that gouging would be investigated, and that all of the guilty parties would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Amazingly, the prices dropped by more than $1.50 by closing that night. One of the local owners stated that the reason he raised them is that he didn't want to run out of gas (who put him in charge of rationing?) In poetic justice, there was so much backlash that he went out of business six months later. I would like to see Bush announce the same thing, that gougers would be prosecuted to the full extent. My point to you however, is that 99.99% of the people that I know in this business are good honest folk, and I won't lump all of the people in any one industry (like attorneys) in to one barrel of bad apples, and I hope that no one does that with us.
101 posted on 09/08/2005 8:39:56 AM PDT by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem in the name of the G-d of Jacob)
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To: cogitator

Gov Murkowski instructed Alaska oil producers to ramp up production to help meet the shortfall due to Katrina. BP and Conoco responded that they can't ramp up since they are already producing at max.


102 posted on 09/08/2005 8:39:59 AM PDT by RightWhale (We in heep dip trubble)
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To: richardtavor
Whoa there! This application of actual knowledge/expertise to the points raised by Mad-as-Hell and Cogitator is simply uncalled for and is very, very unfair. This is about the emotional satisfaction derived from feeling screwed by forces (in this case, evil oil companies) beyond one's control, thus providing a simple explanation for life's events. Actually knowing something about the subject simply cannot be allowed, as it reduces the argument to mere reason and facts which is no fun at all.

Geeze! You're probably the kind of person that looked at the pictures of people in New Orleans grabbing tennis shoes, DVD's and TV from Walmart but didn't intuit they were desparately hungry/thirsty survivors only trying to survive!

103 posted on 09/08/2005 8:40:35 AM PDT by sailor4321
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To: highlymotivated
The gross number of refineries in 1981 versus today doesn't tell you much. You really need more information.

What was the size of the refinery?

Was it obsolete?

Was it too expensive to bring it up to standards required by the EPA?

What kind of products could it produce? Were they becoming obsolete?

Was it easier to add capacity at one of the larger refineries than to modify the closed refinery to produce the product?

Did the closed refinery specialize in one or a few grades of crude oil? The fewer grades of crude it could use the less efficient it was. If you couldn't buy the grade of crude (say a port is out of service for some reason) the refinery could be left with no crude oil to refine.
104 posted on 09/08/2005 8:40:42 AM PDT by Cheburashka
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To: Protagoras
So if you admit it's most likely BS from the liberal media, why bring it to my attention?

Because you asked me if there was a hint of collusion, why wasn't the liberal media all over it.
105 posted on 09/08/2005 8:42:02 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: cogitator; FBD
"If they have continued the practice of limiting refining capacity to keep prices high, then this IS relevant to today's prices."

*That's* the key & what I'm wagering's being aggressively pursued.
If such pattern(s) are demonstratively established & revealed?
All hell should break out, and rightly so.

The SEC has cause to get involved at any time, now.

A lot of futures investors -- *mostly* all small fries -- undoubtedly stand to loose everything but the shirts on their backs in one fell swoop to out & out *fraud*.

Has the potential of making Enron *&* the S&L scandals, combined, look puny by comparison.

The WH really needs to be watching this unfold.

...like a hawk.

106 posted on 09/08/2005 8:42:46 AM PDT by Landru (- an intelligent person never relies on dumb-luck -)
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To: Dave Olson
"If limiting refinery capacity was their official policy, oil companies would not be making the effort they are to bring the refineries around New Orleans back on line."

Those income producing refineries belong to them. They're not interested in tossing a monkey wrench into their own works, just OPs. They're also not interested in doing, or supporting anything that will cause a drop in their own income.

107 posted on 09/08/2005 8:45:19 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: cogitator
>Exxon/Mobil supported the action to deny Powerine (Powerline) a small refiner exemption to regulations, so that they (Exxon/Mobil) could increase their profit.

It is the entirely correct that Exxon/Mobile should disagree with government intervention that would decrease the dividends they pay to their owners, the millions of middle-class Americans who invest in the stock market, etc.

As I remember, a number of school teacher retirement funds were heavily invested in those stocks during that period.
108 posted on 09/08/2005 8:46:42 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: cogitator
BS.

If they can't predict for certain what the weather is going to be like tomorrow, I'm not trusting such a heavily politicized issue group to tell us what the weather will be like a hundred years from now.

109 posted on 09/08/2005 8:48:03 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: sailor4321
What?! You mean this is just more left-wing boob-bait?

---

Somehow I suspected that as soon as I read the headline.
110 posted on 09/08/2005 8:48:40 AM PDT by Cheburashka
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To: Dead Corpse
If they can't predict for certain what the weather is going to be like tomorrow, I'm not trusting such a heavily politicized issue group to tell us what the weather will be like a hundred years from now.

It's a minor point tangential to this topic, but predicting the weather is a different problem than predicting the climate.

111 posted on 09/08/2005 8:53:07 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: mysterio
Because you asked me if there was a hint of collusion, why wasn't the liberal media all over it.

And they aren't. So much for that. You pick one article put out by a commie type organization and claim the media is all over it? I think not.

In any case, return to your delusion, I'm sure it's comfortable there. You seem to spend most of your life in a world of your own design, you also are delusional about being a libertarian.

Oh well, carry on.

112 posted on 09/08/2005 8:54:20 AM PDT by Protagoras (My liberal neighbor is more dangerous to my freedom than Osama Bin Laden.)
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To: cogitator
Or even all the things that could be affecting said climate like our solar systems spot on the rim of the galaxy, solar output trends, core temp variations over epochs, ect...

Anthropogenic global warming is a hoax. Plain and simple.

113 posted on 09/08/2005 8:59:14 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: Rocky

Gas goes up right before labor day, because demand is known to increase. Stations raise prices as much as they think they can get away with.

If people would pay $10 a gallon for gas, that is what the stations would (AND SHOULD) charge.

When you go to work, why do you get paid what you do? Why don't you charge your employer half the price? Because you want to make as much money as possible. Why doesn't your employer pay you TWICE as much? Because he wants to spend as little as possible. How did you end up with the salary you have? In a perfect world, it represents exactly the amount of money it takes your employer to keep you from getting a job somewhere else, and not a penny more or less.

In markets for products we "really need", there is the fear that by "colluding" the market can be driven higher, and we will have no choice but to pay the price. If there was no collusion, it is assumed that some supplier would want to grab a bigger market share, and would set a lower price, and then others would follow, so the price should end up at about the level such that you will keep going to the gas station you are going to, and not switch to another -- and not a penny more or less.

But this weekend showed that if the price is raised too high, we CAN cut back on what we use. So even with collusion there is pressure to drop prices back.

When Katrina hit, there was a known and real shortage of gas, mostly because a large amount of supply went from being stored in station tanks, to being stored in people's cars.

So the price SHOT UP. Which lowered demand, which resolved the supply crisis.

Prices always come down more slowly, because consumers, even when spooked to NOT BUY because of a rapid rise, will tend to purchase at a HIGH price if that price is lower than before.

It is the same reason that clearance items often start at 10% off, and then get higher discounts. Pick off the higher-paying customers first, and then lower some more. You'd be a fool to drop your price so much that you sold out your gas supply.

Each gas station does their own curve, determining how many people would show up at each price, and sets the price to maximize the profit to the station (taking into account the fixed costs as well)

BTW, I agree that the memos themselves don't say what the report suggests. FOr example, the Mobil memo says they should buy the Powerine refinery output, but that isn't to make it dissappear, but rather to help their own profit margin since they will be getting gas at a lower cost to be resold to retailers.


114 posted on 09/08/2005 9:06:27 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: cogitator

OK... I've been hearing this line of thinking for several years now. I've never put much stock in it, because, most people I've known in the refining business have been complaining for years about how they "just can't make money". Now, even my wife is thinking the refineries are "holding back production to drive up prices." :-(

So, I read these memos with an open mind; expecting to see some "smoking guns" proving that Big Oil was colluding to rip off the masses. What did I find? Refining executives strategizing INTERNALLY about ways to maintain 1- 5 CENTS PER GALLON profit! Think about what we were paying for gas in 1996. If the refineries were making 1-5 cents, were THEY really the one ripping everyone off? How about the $38.5 cents the Feds have been taking?

In all of these memos, these guys seem to be STRUGGLING to find ways to maintain their very meager profit. Wow.. what a scandal.

And, if you think they're holding back production NOW, when prices are at an all time high... well, you just don't understand these businesses very well. I assure you, they're working OVERTIME trying to make EVERY gallon they can while the 'gettins good'.

It's gonna take more than these memos to convince me that competition is not working well for the benefit of the American people when it comes to gas pricing.


115 posted on 09/08/2005 9:13:36 AM PDT by SomeCallMeTim
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I agree that the memos cited in the article above do not support the conclusion. I also agree that demand goes up during the summer. But a few weeks before the hurricane, gasoline started going up dramatically. Not a few cents per gallon.

There may be a reasonable explanation. I don't think the usual summer increase entirely explains it. And I am talking about pre-Katrina, so the effects of the hurricane cannot be used as the reason.


116 posted on 09/08/2005 9:13:41 AM PDT by Rocky
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To: Dead Corpse
Anthropogenic global warming is a hoax. Plain and simple.

You need to read the linked article in post 91.

117 posted on 09/08/2005 9:15:25 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: MAD-AS-HELL
..yes, there is & was internal research for automotive fuel efficiency.

It was done by the oil companies themselves, yes, it's true.

Part of the study (partially sponsored by big auto) was to help determine "Fleet Average MPG" so production (of gasoline) could be "managed".

118 posted on 09/08/2005 9:16:05 AM PDT by norraad ("What light!">Blues Brothers)
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To: Enterprise

They'd be justified in doing so in my opinion. This is at least collusion, and at most massive fraud and super-grand theft.

The natural response of Republicans should be to put the three CEO's into a pit and let wild dogs kill them slowly.


119 posted on 09/08/2005 9:18:25 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: cogitator

Milton Friedman alluded to such situations over 30 years ago. The most seemingly altruistic regulations are most often promoted by big companies seeking to keep out competition. Just look at how the big tobacco companies are using their settlement with govt's to shut down smaller competitors.


120 posted on 09/08/2005 9:23:01 AM PDT by Betaille ("I turned 21 in prison doin' life without parole" Merle Haggard (lyrics))
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