Posted on 09/15/2005 8:42:34 PM PDT by US admirer
When Israel's most prominent Sephardic rabbi described Hurricane Katrina as America's punishment for supporting Israel's withdrawal from Gaza; and condemned its mainly black victims for failing to study Torah, many Jewish leaders here were appalled.
But in Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef's view linking the worst natural disaster in American history to U.S. support for the Gaza withdrawal is not unique among rabbis.
Rabbi Joseph Gerlitzky, the leader of the Lubavitch chasidic sect's center in central Tel-Aviv, among others, gave a sermon from his pulpit soon after the hurricane voicing the same theme. A popular radio rabbi echoed him. And a noted Jerusalem kabbalist reportedly also made similar comments.
The leader of the largest Orthodox group in America, the Orthodox Union, specifically criticized Rabbi Yosef's comments in a widely distributed e-mail.
"I do not think that any living human being, however superior his halachic expertise, can know God's reasons for natural calamities," wrote OU executive vice president Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, referring to Rabbi Yosef's acknowledged authority on matters of religious law. "That God's ways are often inscrutable is a basic and universally accepted component of our belief system."
But the head of the OU's rabbinic group was far more circumspect.
"There are many views regarding God's ways and the problems of good and evil in the world," said Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the Rabbinical Council of America.
The council put out a statement expressing its own view that, "mortal man is not privy to the ways of the Immortal One, and we do not always understand why sadness and tragedy are part of human life."
When asked directly about the statements by the Israeli rabbis, Rabbi Herring said, "Others may have different views. We would not seek to criticize or judge them."
Rabbi Avi Shafran, spokesman for Agudath Israel of America, the largest haredi group in the U.S., preferred not to comment on the record when asked his reaction to the Israeli rabbis' statements.
Rabbi Shafran instead pointed to an article he had written recently expressing his own views as Aguda's spokesman. In his piece, Rabbi Shafran suggested that the sinfulness of New Orleans residents, rather than the Gaza withdrawal, might explain the destruction and death Katrina visited on their city in particular.
"What occurs, at least to me, is that the 'Big Easy' received its nickname from the lifestyle it exemplified, one of leisure and (in its most literal sense) carelessness," he wrote, reflecting on the significance of the tragedy's main venue. "The city is probably best known" or was, at least, until now "for the unbridled partying and debauchery that yearly characterized its annual Mardi Gras celebrations."
At the same time, he wrote, in times of catastrophe, "Jewish tradition counsels Jews to point their fingers at themselves." God, he said, "casts the Jews as chosen" with "a responsibility not only to strive to live exemplary lives in service to the divine but also to see world events as messages."
Despite the statements of Rabbi Gerlitzky, the Tel Aviv Lubavitch leader, Zalman Shmotkin, a spokesman for Lubavitch World Headquarters in Brooklyn, said of the Israeli's comments, "Clearly no one can claim to know how or why God does what he does."
It was in his weekly sermon last week that Rabbi Yosef, the most prominent of the Israeli rabbis involved, described the hurricane as "God's retribution."
"[President] Bush was behind Gush Katif," he explained, citing one of the Gaza settlements from which Jews were forced out. "He perpetrated the expulsion. Now everyone is mad at him. This is his punishment for what he did to Gush Katif."
As for the New Orleans residents who were forced to flee their homes or, worse, who were unable to, or who lost their lives, Rabbi Yosef said, "There was a tsunami, and there are terrible natural disasters because there isn't enough Torah study" "Hundreds of thousands remained homeless. Tens of thousands have been killed. All of this because they have no God."
Rabbi Gerlitzky, the Tel-Aviv Lubavitch leader, sermonized on the topic from his pulpit on the Sabbath of Sept. 3. He told the World Net Daily Web site soon after, "We don't have prophets who can tell us exactly what are God's ways, but when we see something so enormous as Katrina, I would say Bush and [Secretary of State Condoleezza] Rice need to make an accounting of their actions, because something was done wrong by America in a big way. There are many obvious connections between the storm and the Gaza evacuation, which come right on top of each other. No one has permission to take one inch of the Land of Israel from the Jewish people."
In an interview with The Jewish Week, Rabbi Gerlitzky stood by his quotes but stressed he spoke to the press as an official of the Rabbinic Congress for Peace, an anti-disengagement group, not as a representative of Lubavitch.
Rabbi Lazar Brody, a popular rabbi with his own radio program in Israel, wrote on his blog even before Katrina hit New Orleans:
"Authorities in Louisiana have ordered hundreds of thousands of people to flee from their homes. The Talmud teaches ... 'a turn for a turn.' My heart tells me there's a link between the forced expulsion of 8,500 people [from Gaza] and the nearly 850,000 people who are forced to flee their homes in Louisiana." Hashem [God] isn't wasting much time in showing his wrath "I humbly believe the unfortunate people of Louisiana can blame Mr. Bush and Ms. Rice for their misfortune." "He who creates exiles in the Holy Land will have a hundred-fold exiles in his own land."
And Jerusalem kabbalist Rabbi David Batzri, a prominent student of the venerated kabbalist elder, Rabbi Yitzhak Kedourie, echoed the thought. "Divine retribution is meted out according to the principle of 'measure for measure,'"; he told World Net Daily. "Just as the Jews were forced out of their homes as a result of U.S. pressure on Israel, so, too, are Americans being forced out of their homes."
Israeli rabbis were not alone in their prophetic instinct, of course. A number of Evangelical Christian leaders also linked Katrina's destruction to U.S. support for the disengagement. And many more linked it to what they decried as New Orleans' "decadence" albeit in much stronger terms than Rabbi Shafran.
At the same time, some Muslim leaders attributed the catastrophe to the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born terrorist leader who claims responsibility for scores of bombings in Iraq, made the point in a tape released on an Islamist Web site. And in South Philadelphia on Aug. 31, Black Muslim minister Louis Farrakhan opined that Katrina was divine punishment for the violence the U.S. had inflicted on Iraq.
Among the Jewish groups to condemn the remarks by Rabbi Yosef were the Anti-Defamation League and the Reform movement's Religious Action Center. But the refusal of some Orthodox groups to criticize Rabbi Yosef's comments may be linked to his stature.
A former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Yosef is, for Sephardic Jews, without peer among living rabbis as an authority on Orthodox religious law.
"A disavowal of a great man's comments is essentially a disavowal of the man," said one Orthodox communal official, explaining their dilemma.
But Rabbi Alan Brill, a professor of Jewish philosophy at Yeshiva University, said the issue is wider than that. The rhetoric linking world events to biblical prophecy has "become a big part of the Orthodox community," he said, just as it has for Evangelical Christianity.
During the last 15 years, Rabbi Brill explained, a variety of factors have made biblical prophecy and world events a major theme of Orthodox discourse, especially among religious leaders. The Chabad Lubavitch movement's messianic worldview, inspired by its late leader, is one key factor, he said; the separate messianism of the Gush Emunim settlers' movement in Israel is another.
For Orthodox Jews in America, said Brill, this all takes place within the broader culture's increasing fixation on messianic end time themes centered on Israel. He cited Rev. Tim LaHaye's best-selling "Left Behind" book series as but one example.
"We're watching an increasing application of biblical prophecy to world events as part of people's daily rhetoric," he said. "That rhetoric has become a strong plurality in both the Orthodox and Christian Evangelical community, not the belief, necessarily; the rhetoric, which is used even if followers don't exactly believe it. No one will say it's nonsense anymore."
When an article was posted here yesterday entitled: "Allah's wrath on America" there was ridicule and condemnation by all the posters. With every such pronouncement the Haredi prove they are as nutty (though thankfully less violent) as the Islamocrazies.
I actually don't think that the good Rabbi is being all that nutty....
I don't like that Israel pulled out of Gaza either. One thing that bothers me about this is the statement that most victims were black. That just isn't true. They are just who the media here chose to focus their coverage on. People who are and were there will tell you white neighborhoods were stranded and suffering too.
I wonder how many natural disasters that have, or will befall the USA, are related to our government's opposition to Israeli rabbinical views of the world?
Give me a break.
Please!
Is it that you believe that G-d, in spite of all the evidence in Scripture, does not act in human affairs?
Or is it that you do not believe that G-d could cause the devastation in New Orleans?
Or, perhaps, that, like the DU folks, you believe that Dubya IS G-d and that he alone has caused the New Orleans devastation but for other reasons???? Like 45 million abortions?????
I ask these questions as a Roman Catholic because inquiring minds, Jewish and otherwise, want to know.
I see...
So people build a city below sea level near the sea in an area commonly hit by hurricanes. They build levees that can withstand up to a category 3 hurricane knowing that hurricanes can be much stronger. Everyone knew it was only a matter of time when the city would get hit by a larger hurricane - and wiped out - and then it happens.
So when it does happen it is God's wrath against our policy with Israel...
Ya, that makes lots of sense...
Now I could go with God's wrath for building your homes in dumb places. But not some other unrelated "policy"...
A large earthquake is coming to the west coast sooner or later. It isn't a matter of if, only when. Major cities will be destroyed. Only this time without warning.
Not a whole lot different than betting a greater than category 3 hurricane won't hit your gulf coast city. Only with a hurricane you get a couple of day warning to evacuate... Much much better.
More nuttiness by the ultra-orthodox Jews and a refusal by most of their leadership to condemn the idiots who make a mockery of their religion.
Likely much simpler than that, the author rather than the article. If you check his recent posts, it’s simply an animosity toward Jews, only the lunatic pig gelatin insane Israeli Firsters who post on FR of course, other Jews I’m sure are just fine.
US Admirer, this is a very easy charge to refute.
You’ve posted on two recent threads regarding the Rabbi’s charges, expressing contempt for Jews, based on the Rabbi's statements regarding Katrina. You mention a thread yesterday, Allah's wrath on America, where there was ridicule and condemnation by all the posters. I’m expect you’d be as contemptuous of a Muslim making the charges as you would a Jew. Can you point me to your post on the thread? I can’t find it.
There have been several threads wherein Christians made similar charges, and numerous posts where individual Freepers have made the same charge. Have you condemned any of them?
IMO you’re not offended by the idea that Katrina may have been God inspired, rather the faith of the one making the charges.
……………………………….
AIPAC blasts U.S.-Saudi oil pact for not ending boycott of Israel
Posted by US admirer to DeeOhGee
On News/Activism 09/09/2005 10:15:15 PM CDT · 5 of 11
Not to long before the Israel first pings begin.
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Israeli rabbi says Katrina was punishment for Gaza pullout
Posted by US admirer to ChicagoHebrew
On News/Activism 09/07/2005 10:42:10 PM CDT · 24 of 64
Or else what? You gonna put an ultra-orthodox curse on me? You guys are something else! Pig gelatin- insanely brilliant! For crying out loud, get a freakin life!
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Israeli rabbi says Katrina was punishment for Gaza pullout
Posted by US admirer to Hildy
On News/Activism 09/07/2005 10:28:18 PM CDT · 12 of 64
The media has every right to expose nutjobs like this due to the fact that, as according to Wikipedia, "He is generally considered one of the most important religious authorities for Sephardic Jews." and as a former chief rabbi in Israel, can influence other ultra-orthodox nutjobs, some of whom religiously read and comment at Free Republic.
These guys are just one step below the Islamocrazies and if given the chance and the numbers would likely seek to enforce their craziness on those who did not conform to their nuttiness.
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Analysis: Netanyahu: U.S. opposes? So what?
Posted by US admirer to Blogger
On News/Activism 08/31/2005 8:11:47 PM CDT · 20 of 80
If American boys were not going to be called on to bail Israel out of a mess that they get themselves into, AND we, the American taxpayers, were not their banker you might, might just have a point.
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Jewish fanatics flood into Gaza to resist withdrawal
Posted by US admirer to Alouette
On News/Activism 05/22/2005 11:55:45 AM CDT · 12 of 48
It would appear that it is actually one fanatically perceived group of Jews calling another even more fanatical group of Jews "fanatics":
"Gush Katif settlers are widely regarded even in Israel as fanatics. They are consequently clannish and suspicious of the press. However, I spent last week living with a family there and the stereotype is far from the truth.
They are observant Jews but, unlike the newcomers from America, they have no religious agenda. Indeed, they call the new arrivals “fanatics”. Now on their third generation, they are fanatical only about the farms they have built up."
For clarification purposes, it would therefore appear that it is your brethren from Gush Katif that think the Lubavitcher Jews as fanatics (I did not see any reference to imply all Lubavitcher Jews including you and your family were fanatics). That claim is merely being reported in the article.
..........................................
Well then let's just examine your hypothesis.
Your selective use of quotations to mislead people is disgusting and one more example of what a zealot will do to try to win by slime rather than force of argument.
I discovered the other “wrath” posting 1 minute before I posted my “wrath” post, as I was in the process of ensuring that my “wrath” post had not been previously posted. It was by that time a well-worn thread without controversy. Had I posted you can be certain, by the content and frequency of my posts against the Islamocrazies or Christian zealots, that it would have attacked just as forcefully than you have seen here.
As any honest person could see by a review of my posts, which by the way you reviewed, I am vehemently against Islamism. You chose to try to cover that up didn’t you? Well in the process you have revealed yourself for what you truly are. Take for example the recent article referred to on FR that advocated entering each “holy” mosque to ensure that it is not being used to foment hate and violence…
German conservative wants every mosque checked ^
Posted by US admirer to Embraer2004
On News/Activism ^ 09/10/2005 9:29:43 AM EDT · 3 of 13 ^
A rare clarion call by an enlightened politician. I wonder how long before he is pilloried?
Are you ready? Tomorrow you will be in Paradise . . .(Interviews with Suicide Bombers) ^
Posted by US admirer to FreedomSurge
On News/Activism ^ 07/14/2005 6:01:27 PM EDT · 2 of 21 ^
"His act becomes the subject of sermons in mosques,..."
Here is the reason that we will be fighting Islam as long as it exists in its present form.
WSJ: The Van Gogh Murder ^
Posted by US admirer to Little Ray
On News/Activism ^ 11/10/2004 9:35:44 AM EST · 29 of 50 ^
Exactly. The issue here is militant violent religious extremism- and that is one title owned by Islam.
Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies
WSJ: The Van Gogh Murder ^
Posted by US admirer to Little Ray
On News/Activism ^ 11/10/2004 9:18:48 AM EST · 20 of 50 ^
This whole line of reasoning, related to the Jewish analogy is flawed: even the radical Jews were not out to take over the world and kill all non-believers.
Hmmm, defending Jews when they are unfairly attacked…. Sounds like I must be a rabid anti-Semite doesn’t it. But as I have previously stated, as recently as last week on FR when I was confronting one of the nuttier ultra-orthodox on this site who attacked me as anti Israel and anti-Semitic for criticizing mouth to genital contact by rabbis performing circumcision:
“
…. People of all faiths have resorted in the past to all manners of bizarre, though utilitarian strategies/practices, that would be considered unhealthy if not unthinkable in the context of modern society and science. Most religions and individuals however have been able to recognize when such practices were no longer required or advisable. You and your ilk however are frozen in time, or at least “5000 years” worth, unable to appreciate when such practices become liabilities rather than benefits.
On the subject of my opinion of Jews you are particularly deceptive as in fact anyone who cares to query my past posts would see that they reveal that I have:
1) been mentored in my profession by a Jew who remains, to this day, a close friend,
2) dated a Jew with whom (along with her family) I am still very friendly
3) absolutely no enmity towards Jews who are not fanatics/zealots of the variety that you so well typify.
No (name deleted), as much as you wish it were true, so that you could dismiss any criticism of your disgusting practices, I don't hate Jews but I certainly don't like you, and you know what, I wouldn't like you if you were catholic, protestant or Muslim if you espoused the same type of garbage. You are a vile example of what religion can produce. The same disease, albeit somewhat less virulent, that created the nuts that drove planes into the WTC motivates you – a fanatical conviction and blind obedience to the nutty directives of even nuttier role models.
And speaking of Israel, which is populated by a large number of intelligent and creative secular individuals whom you no doubt dislike, I suspect you would be right alongside your nutty black-robed and hatted zealots in arms, ready to stone the cars of non-adherents, when they dare to drive their cars on the Sabbath through Jerusalem. You (name deleted), are unfortunately an all too excellent example of what is wrong with religion…”
I have no problem with any religion as long as it does not advocate inane policies and directives that either are or could be potentially harmful to others. You can be as loony as you want as long as it does not impact others. Just leave the people who Islamism of Haredism for what it is - fanaticism, alone and in peace even if it means letting a car drive by you on the Sabbath. Surely you can resist that urge to heave a rock at its windshield unlike the ultra-orthodox nut cases who have, with such righteousness, done so in Israel.
If your selective quotation of me was unintentional, I'm certain you will want to apologize, won't you Sammy?
I’m sure they would, you can’t attack people on every thread, you have to be selective.
As any honest person could see by a review of my posts, which by the way you reviewed, I am vehemently against Islamism. You chose to try to cover that up didn’t you?
No, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you hate Muslims. What I stated was Likely much simpler than that, the author rather than the article.. That seems to be true.
In the post’s I cited you’ve described the keepers of the ping lists on Israel as Israel Fristers, a classic dual loyalty charge, referred to another freeper, presumably Jewish as Pig gelatin- insanely brilliant and accuse him of trying to put an ultra-orthodox curse on me, refer to selected, unnamed Jewish freepers as one step below the Islamocrazies and if given the chance and the numbers would likely seek to enforce their craziness on those who did not conform to their nuttiness, and make the proclaim that American boys were not going to be called on to bail Israel out of a mess that they get themselves, as though anyone ever suggested that.
Yes, I think you have a problem with Jews, perhaps only some Jews, those who support Israel.
To concince me otherwise, you present:
Well in the process you have revealed yourself for what you truly are
What’s that?
Soon I learn, with the standard I have Jewish friends nonsense.
You and your ilk however are frozen in time, or at least “5000 years” worth, unable to appreciate when such practices become liabilities rather than benefits.You are a vile example of what religion can produce. The same disease, albeit somewhat less virulent, that created the nuts that drove planes into the WTC motivates you – a fanatical conviction and blind obedience to the nutty directives of even nuttier role models
you would be right alongside your nutty black-robed and hatted zealots in arms, ready to stone the cars of non-adherents, when they dare to drive their cars on the Sabbath through Jerusalem. You (name deleted), are unfortunately an all too excellent example of what is wrong with religion…”
I have no problem with any religion as long as it does not advocate inane policies and directives that either are or could be potentially harmful to others. You can be as loony as you want as long as it does not impact others. Just leave the people who Islamism of Haredism for what it is - fanaticism, alone and in peace even if it means letting a car drive by you on the Sabbath. Surely you can resist that urge to heave a rock at its windshield unlike the ultra-orthodox nut cases who have, with such righteousness, done so in Israel.
Convinced me, you like Jews!
If your selective quotation of me was unintentional, I'm certain you will want to apologize, won't you Sammy?
For what, you’re a classic example of Jew obsession, the ignorant variety.
So many errors, so much obfuscation, so little time.
First, I’ll cut you some slack with respect to the non-sequitur you uttered in response to my words:
“Well then let's just examine your hypothesis…. Your selective use of quotations to mislead people is disgusting and one more example of what a zealot will do to try to win by slime rather than force of argument….I discovered the other “wrath” posting 1 minute before I posted my “wrath” post, as I was in the process of ensuring that my “wrath” post had not been previously posted. It was, by that time, a well-worn thread without controversy. Had I posted, you can be certain, by the content and frequency of my posts against the Islamocrazies or Christian zealots, that I would have attacked just as forcefully than you have seen here.”
You stated: “I’m sure they would, you can’t attack people on every thread, you have to be selective.”
Who is they? … they would what? What the hell are you trying to say anyway?
So, apparently I have been able to convince you that I don’t hate all Jews. Good, we appear to be making some progress, as you are in fact correct in that deduction.
You hypothesize that perhaps, I only hate Jews “who support Israel”. Here your powers of deduction are demonstrably challenged, for I would think that my statement of praise of “a large number of intelligent and creative secular (Israeli) individuals” would force you to accept that I am not, de facto, hateful of Jews who support, or for that matter, live in Israel. So your second assertion is also shown therefore, to be implausible at best.
Next, you once again incorrectly, with perhaps Freudian slippage, claim that I “described the keepers of the ping lists on Israel as Israel Fristers (sic)”. Of course that is completely untrue. If you would bother to carefully read and digest what I said: “Not to long before the Israel first pings begin.” (actual quote)
Now, it may have escaped your attention, but there are some posters at FR who have demonstrated, to use your terms “classic dual loyalty”. I would not be so charitable to others who seem to have a classic Israel loyalty, in matters of Jonathan Pollard, or say choosing the Israeli government side over that of the USA in regards to settlements in occupied territories etc. These are the Israel first group that I have referred to. That is not to say that any American, including Jews, can not disagree with their own government. They can. What is beyond the pale are those posters, Jewish, protestant or otherwise, whose only justification for siding with a foreign power is that it is “the land of the Jews” or perhaps “that it is written in the bible” etc etc.
Although I see various Jewish and Israel ping lists I have no idea if any “keeper” of such lists also happens to be an Israel first type, although I have seen individual posters who, in my judgment have inarguably demonstrated such a position.
Perhaps you could, for the record, and the sake of your credibility cite a single post where I have described any “keeper” of such lists as an “Israel Fristers (sic)”. No? I didn’t think so. Never mind, I suspect credibility is not something that you find particularly bothersome as it pertains to you anyway.
Your next blatant falsehood is your attribution to me of vile ad hominems, directed at “unnamed Jewish freepers”. Here you sink to quite a low level, unless you genuinely misread my post on the subject, which I confess I have a hard time believing.
So, let us once and for all put the record straight. What I did in fact say, in response to a condescending remark by another freeper who stated regarding the nutty rabbi (09/07/2005 11:36:13 PM EDT):
“He's an insanely brilliant, modest and compassionate man. He's also probably the greatest Rabbi alive today, and the spiritual leader for most of Sephardic Jewry. And he's no extremist, he's well-known for taking very lenient positions on most subjects in Jewish law (for a very minor example, he ruled that even gelatin from a pig is kosher)… Don't you dare compare him to an Islamofacist.”
(aside- if he's the greatest rabbi alive today, the ultra-orthodox nuts are in even worse shape than I thought)
Which prompted the following response from me (09/07/2005 11:42:10 PM EDT):
“Or else what? You gonna put an ultra-orthodox curse on me? You guys are something else! Pig gelatin- insanely brilliant! For crying out loud, get a freakin life!”
So once again you have been exposed as a fraud. You took my quotes of the crazy rabbi’s supporter, and then in a truly deceptive fashion, falsely suggested that I was somehow calling the freeper who had used the quote “Pig gelatin- insanely brilliant!”
Let me put your mind at rest, that freeper’s rigidity suggests that he is anything but gelatinous and the feebleness of his argument suggests that he is not brilliant.
Next, you ask “What’s that?” In response to my statement that you have revealed yourself for what you truly are. Let me be even more clear: you are a fraud, a deceiving individual obsessed with advancing his agenda at any cost, including the cost of truth.
You dismiss the fact that “I have Jewish friends” as nonsense. It would of course be nonsense if I had Jewish friends as shallow and dishonorable as you. In the process, you demean those Jews, even if they are the “self-hating” type (is that the term you like to use for Jews that disagree with you?)
“Convince me you like Jews”. Is that it? You need to feel liked do you? It isn’t really about argument, logic, the soundness of an assertion, is it?. You want to be liked.
Well unfortunately, all I have to go on are your words, words that seem centered on distortion and untruths. You dismiss my affirmation of respect and friendship with Jews without one shred of proof. Perhaps it is because you can not accept that any Jew would befriend a non-Jew who is critical of certain Israeli governmental policies or even certain religious practices of the fringe element of their religion. I suspect that it bothers you to no end that someone critical of the ultra-orthodox could even have Jewish friends. Well deal with it bub.
Finally you suggest that I have an ignorant obsession with Jews. If I do have any obsession, it is exposing the shallowness of people like you who refuse to address issues, preferring instead to cry "racism" and "anti-Semitism" as the answer to all that they can not rebut.
BTW you have still not commented on the nuttiness of “probably the greatest Rabbi alive today, and the spiritual leader for most of Sephardic Jewry “ You can’t bear to label him a fruitcake can you, because in your heart, you would have to accept that perhaps other aspects of his teachings are just as absurd as his pronouncements on Katrina?
That is the condemnation of blind faith- to forever defend that which you are told to believe, that which you are told is right, irrespective of the substance of the validity. Don’t think, just follow. I see you are very good at that. You really deserve to be pitied.
So many errors, so much obfuscation, so little time.
First, I’ll cut you some slack with respect to the non-sequitur you uttered in response to my words:
“Well then let's just examine your hypothesis…. Your selective use of quotations to mislead people is disgusting and one more example of what a zealot will do to try to win by slime rather than force of argument….I discovered the other “wrath” posting 1 minute before I posted my “wrath” post, as I was in the process of ensuring that my “wrath” post had not been previously posted. It was, by that time, a well-worn thread without controversy. Had I posted, you can be certain, by the content and frequency of my posts against the Islamocrazies or Christian zealots, that I would have attacked just as forcefully than you have seen here.”
You stated: “I’m sure they would, you can’t attack people on every thread, you have to be selective.”
Who is they? … they would what? What the hell are you trying to say anyway?
So, apparently I have been able to convince you that I don’t hate all Jews. Good, we appear to be making some progress, as you are in fact correct in that deduction.
You hypothesize that perhaps, I only hate Jews “who support Israel”. Here your powers of deduction are demonstrably challenged, for I would think that my statement of praise of “a large number of intelligent and creative secular (Israeli) individuals” would force you to accept that I am not, de facto, hateful of Jews who support, or for that matter, live in Israel. So your second assertion is also shown therefore, to be implausible at best.
Next, you once again incorrectly, with perhaps Freudian slippage, claim that I “described the keepers of the ping lists on Israel as Israel Fristers (sic)”. Of course that is completely untrue. If you would bother to carefully read and digest what I said: “Not to long before the Israel first pings begin.” (actual quote)
Now, it may have escaped your attention, but there are some posters at FR who have demonstrated, to use your terms “classic dual loyalty”. I would not be so charitable to others who seem to have a classic Israel loyalty, in matters of Jonathan Pollard, or say choosing the Israeli government side over that of the USA in regards to settlements in occupied territories etc. These are the Israel first group that I have referred to. That is not to say that any American, including Jews, can not disagree with their own government. They can. What is beyond the pale are those posters, Jewish, protestant or otherwise, whose only justification for siding with a foreign power is that it is “the land of the Jews” or perhaps “that it is written in the bible” etc etc.
Although I see various Jewish and Israel ping lists I have no idea if any “keeper” of such lists also happens to be an Israel first type, although I have seen individual posters who, in my judgment have inarguably demonstrated such a position.
Perhaps you could, for the record, and the sake of your credibility cite a single post where I have described any “keeper” of such lists as an “Israel Fristers (sic)”. No? I didn’t think so. Never mind, I suspect credibility is not something that you find particularly bothersome as it pertains to you anyway.
Your next blatant falsehood is your attribution to me of vile ad hominems, directed at “unnamed Jewish freepers”. Here you sink to quite a low level, unless you genuinely misread my post on the subject, which I confess I have a hard time believing.
So, let us once and for all put the record straight. What I did in fact say, in response to a condescending remark by another freeper who stated regarding the nutty rabbi (09/07/2005 11:36:13 PM EDT):
“He's an insanely brilliant, modest and compassionate man. He's also probably the greatest Rabbi alive today, and the spiritual leader for most of Sephardic Jewry. And he's no extremist, he's well-known for taking very lenient positions on most subjects in Jewish law (for a very minor example, he ruled that even gelatin from a pig is kosher)… Don't you dare compare him to an Islamofacist.”
(aside- if he's the greatest rabbi alive today, the ultra-orthodox nuts are in even worse shape than I thought)
Which prompted the following response from me (09/07/2005 11:42:10 PM EDT):
“Or else what? You gonna put an ultra-orthodox curse on me? You guys are something else! Pig gelatin- insanely brilliant! For crying out loud, get a freakin life!”
So once again you have been exposed as a fraud. You took my quotes of the crazy rabbi’s supporter, and then in a truly deceptive fashion, falsely suggested that I was somehow calling the freeper who had used the quote “Pig gelatin- insanely brilliant!”
Let me put your mind at rest, that freeper’s rigidity suggests that he is anything but gelatinous and the feebleness of his argument suggests that he is not brilliant.
Next, you ask “What’s that?” In response to my statement that you have revealed yourself for what you truly are. Let me be even more clear: you are a fraud, a deceiving individual obsessed with advancing his agenda at any cost, including the cost of truth.
You dismiss the fact that “I have Jewish friends” as nonsense. It would of course be nonsense if I had Jewish friends as shallow and dishonorable as you. In the process, you demean those Jews, even if they are the “self-hating” type (is that the term you like to use for Jews that disagree with you?)
“Convince me you like Jews”. Is that it? You need to feel liked do you? It isn’t really about argument, logic, the soundness of an assertion, is it?. You want to be liked.
Well unfortunately, all I have to go on are your words, words that seem centered on distortion and untruths. You dismiss my affirmation of respect and friendship with Jews without one shred of proof. Perhaps it is because you can not accept that any Jew would befriend a non-Jew who is critical of certain Israeli governmental policies or even certain religious practices of the fringe element of their religion. I suspect that it bothers you to no end that someone critical of the ultra-orthodox could even have Jewish friends. Well deal with it bub.
Finally you suggest that I have an ignorant obsession with Jews. If I do have any obsession, it is exposing the shallowness of people like you who refuse to address issues, preferring instead to cry "racism" and "anti-Semitism" as the answer to all that they can not rebut.
BTW you have still not commented on the nuttiness of “probably the greatest Rabbi alive today, and the spiritual leader for most of Sephardic Jewry “ You can’t bear to label him a fruitcake can you, because in your heart, you would have to accept that perhaps other aspects of his teachings are just as absurd as his pronouncements on Katrina?
That is the condemnation of blind faith- to forever defend that which you are told to believe, that which you are told is right, irrespective of the substance of the validity. Don’t think, just follow. I see you are very good at that. You really deserve to be pitied.
Save the bandwith, your opinion of me is of complete disinterest.
My you are pathetic.
My own personal view, is that the force of nature, is something God created and he allows that force of nature to act as it wishes....I just dont believe that God used Katrina, to destroy NO because it was 'evil', in many Christian eyes, or used Katrina to harm the USA in general, because the Moslems believe we are all nasty infidels...I just dont see it...
Now, certainly, God being all powerful, and creator of all forces, could use nature for His own purpose...but no one can ever devine those purposes...I cannot know the mind of God, neither can anyone else here...
I live in Olympia, Washington, near enough to Mt. St. Helens, and Mt. Rainier...and yes, at any time, I suppose, they could blow, and cause great damage...I lived almost on top of the epicenter of the Nisqually Earthquake a few years ago...our house shook and rolled, things went flying, and it was scarey....
But I dont base where I live on the proposition that something bad might happen where I live...Hurricanes, Tornados, Earthquakes, Erupting Volcanos, flooding, drought, frigid temps, scorching temps, etc., etc., etc. are forces of nature, and anyone can at anytime, try to attribute the destruction that such forces bring with them, onto some agenda or motive that God has...but not one of us knows if or what that agenda or motive might be, or if there is an agenda or motive, or simple random chance...
Anyone who proclaims that they know the mind of God, is in my opinion, someone who has a unrealistic high opinion of themselves...
No, I did not think you had it in you to address any issues- just more blather. So be it.
Read the article bright boy/girl. Any derision from you might just be positive as you are so plainly wrong and inept in your assessments.
The article was not about the nut per se, but about the inability or unwillingness of the sheep under him to issue criticism. That is what the point of this discussion was about.
Everyone knows he is a religious “ultra”-cook. The really disturbing aspect to the story is the complicity of the "ultra" lesser-cooks, in not disavowing his nuttiness.
Pig gelatin. I still can't get over the wackiness.
Shalom.
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