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Jesuit Official Rips Expected Ban on Gays
AP Religion ^ | 9/30/2005 | RACHEL ZOLL

Posted on 09/30/2005 11:20:25 AM PDT by NormB

Estimates of the numbers of gays in the priesthood vary from 25 percent to 50 percent. About one-third of the 42,500 U.S. priests are members of religious orders.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholicchurch; homosexualagenda; religiousleft; vatican
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Let's have a rational discussion on homosexuality in the Church!
1 posted on 09/30/2005 11:20:25 AM PDT by NormB
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To: NormB

Does anyone know if the Jesuits are still worth a damn ouside of the US?


2 posted on 09/30/2005 11:21:33 AM PDT by ECM
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To: NormB
"Estimates of the numbers of gays in the priesthood vary from 25 percent to 50 percent.

imagine that..

3 posted on 09/30/2005 11:23:11 AM PDT by Windsong (FighterPilot)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; broadsword; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; ...

"Those crazy Jesuits" Catholic ping!


4 posted on 09/30/2005 11:24:02 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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To: Pyro7480

I went to a Jesuit High School, I treasured the education. But the theology in retrospect left something to be desired. It is time to suppress the Jesuits.


5 posted on 09/30/2005 11:26:13 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NormB
Okay rational discussion. The Bible condemns homosexuality. Anyone who condones homosexuality should not teach the Bible nor be a leader in the catholic (little c!!) Church. Discussion over
6 posted on 09/30/2005 11:26:34 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: NormB

start your own homosexual church

If you do not beleive in the Churches Dogma - do what Lucif --- Luther did and break away!

Do NOT pollute the Catholic Church.


7 posted on 09/30/2005 11:27:03 AM PDT by hombre_sincero (www.spadata.com)
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To: hombre_sincero

Yess I know Churches should be Church's

SUE ME!


8 posted on 09/30/2005 11:27:35 AM PDT by hombre_sincero (www.spadata.com)
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To: ValenB4; anonymoussierra; zagor-te-nej; Freelance Warrior; kedr; Sober 4 Today; BrooklynGOP; ...
My God, I hope that's a lie. If that's the truth, then the Devil has truly infiltrated one of the two main branches of Christianity and nothing but evil will or is coming of it.

My advice to the Catholics is to slice the cancer away with the detachment of a surgeon, until the wound is truly clean. Take no compromises, make no packs.

9 posted on 09/30/2005 11:28:03 AM PDT by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: NormB
First, the estimate that 25 to 50% of the clergy is homosexual is total B.S.

I have met many, many priests in my 43 years, and have only met one who was a homosexual and who was removed for molestation of a minor.

The issue is, of course, is whether a celibate homosexual can be a Catholic priest. An active homosexual cannot given both the unambiguous teachings of scripture and the fact that priests must ovserve a vow of celibacy.

Given the fact that the Church has stated that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, I don't see how the Church can allow ordination of a celibate homosexual.

That may seem unfair, but the priesthood is not about fairness. It's about representing the message of Christ and providing example of that message.

I pray for those men who struggle with this issue. But I would no more want a homosexual (celibate or otherwise) to be a priest any more than I would want an cleptomaniac to work the jewelry counter at Nordstroms or a reformed alcoholic to work ina bar.

10 posted on 09/30/2005 11:29:44 AM PDT by CWW (Mark Sanford for President on 2008!)
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To: NormB

I tought the only sexual orientation appropriate for a priest was the gift of celibacy.


11 posted on 09/30/2005 11:29:56 AM PDT by griz74 (griz74)
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To: NormB
Let's have a rational discussion on homosexuality in the Church!

Good luck with that.

For my part, I have no problem with gay priests and I think the Vatican is wrong in this decision. I'm an ex-Catholic.

I do think there is something wrong though if 25-50% of priests are gay, when only 10% of the general population is gay.

12 posted on 09/30/2005 11:30:46 AM PDT by conserv13
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To: CWW

Church didn't state it, God did: See Leviticus and Romans.


13 posted on 09/30/2005 11:31:33 AM PDT by griz74 (griz74)
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To: griz74

Does the church follow all the laws in Leviticus and Romans?


14 posted on 09/30/2005 11:32:36 AM PDT by conserv13
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To: Pyro7480

Anyone want to place bets on how long he lasts?


15 posted on 09/30/2005 11:33:04 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: conserv13

I imagine both percentages are highly exaggerated.


16 posted on 09/30/2005 11:33:56 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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To: CWW
I have met many, many priests in my 43 years, and have only met one who was a homosexual and who was removed for molestation of a minor.

I am sure they wouldn't want you to know. I personally know a guy who went to seminary and dropped out at least in part because he KNEW half of the guys in there were gay fags.

17 posted on 09/30/2005 11:34:16 AM PDT by NormB (Yes, but watch your cookies!!)
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To: ECM
Not sure about elsewhere, but here the "Catholic" schools they run are vaguely Catholic anymore.
18 posted on 09/30/2005 11:38:54 AM PDT by Sthitch
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To: NormB
Chojnacki wrote in the letter, dated Monday, that he had participated in the funerals of several gay Jesuit clergy over the last few years. "I find it insulting to demean their memory and their years of service by even hinting that they were unfit for priesthood because of their sexual orientation," he wrote.

I'm not Catholic, but am curious to know if the Pope has the authority to remove this defender of perversion from the Catholic priesthood? If so, what keeps him from doing it?

Sincerely,

H-T

19 posted on 09/30/2005 11:39:31 AM PDT by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: NormB

The Rev. Gerald Chojnacki, head of the New York Province of the Society of Jesus, said in a letter to his priests that he was asking bishops to tell Vatican officials who are drafting the policy "of the great harm this will cause many good priests and the Catholic faithful."

Chojnacki wrote in the letter, dated Monday, that he had participated in the funerals of several gay Jesuit clergy over the last few years.

"I find it insulting to demean their memory and their years of service by even hinting that they were unfit for priesthood because of their sexual orientation," he wrote.

Chojnacki said he would be working with the Conference of Major Superiors, which represents leaders of religious orders in the United States including the Jesuits, Franciscans and others, and with bishops to fight "for the opportunity of a gay person to say yes to God's call in celibate service of priesthood and chaste religious life."

A priest who supports the protest provided the letter to The Associated Press. A spokesman for the New York province did not respond to a request for comment Friday.

A Vatican official said last week that the upcoming "instruction" from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education will reaffirm the church's belief that homosexuals should not be ordained.

20 posted on 09/30/2005 11:41:05 AM PDT by kcvl
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To: AMERIKA

snip..

What percentage of priests have a homosexual orientation?
Nobody knows, with any degree of accuracy.

Any discussion of the role of homosexual orientation in the priesthood -- in fact any discussion of clergy abuse itself -- is hampered by a lack of hard, reliable data.

Some estimates of the percentage of current priests with a homosexual orientation:

Analysis of the estimates of others: According to Amanda Ripley of Time Magazine, estimates range from 15% to 50%. 3
According to Bill Blakemore of ABC News, "...nobody knows what percentage of the American priesthood is gay; estimates range from less than 10% to more than 30%." 4

Personal estimates: Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy, chastity, and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. 5 Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation. 6 He told the Boston Globe: "If they were to eliminate all those who were homosexually oriented, the number would be so staggering that it would be like an atomic bomb; it would do the same damage to the church's operation...It would mean the resignation of at least a third of the bishops of the world. And it's very much against the tradition of the church; many saints had a gay orientation, and many popes had gay orientations. Discriminating against orientation is not going to solve the problem."
Sister Maryanne Walsh, spokesperson for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that it would it be difficult to find evidence to support these Sipe's estimates of the percentage of gay men in the priesthood. She feels that it is also irrelevant. She said: "There’s no real purpose in saying whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual. The issue is whether they can make a commitment [to chastity]." 6
Bishop Jerome Listecki is an auxiliary bishop in Chicago. He estimates that "perhaps more than 10%" of priests have a homosexual orientation." (Emphasis ours). 5
Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that “the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.” 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.
A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7
Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8

Actual surveys: In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation;
15% homosexual;
5% bisexual. 9

During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10


Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three.


21 posted on 09/30/2005 11:41:53 AM PDT by AMERIKA ("Liberate Te Ex Inferis")
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To: CWW
I have met many, many priests in my 43 years, and have only met one who was a homosexual and who was removed for molestation of a minor.

How could you tell none of the others was a celibate homosexual?

22 posted on 09/30/2005 11:42:56 AM PDT by sinkspur (Breed every trace of the American Staffordshire Terrier out of existence!)
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To: CWW

If a man is a celibate, then he is not homosexual. Homosexuality is an action. Yes, some people have stronger tendencies toward some sins than others, but it's the acting out that makes it a sin.


23 posted on 09/30/2005 11:43:10 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Sthitch

Right, they've long since given up the ghost in the US...just wondering if the "stormtroopers of the Pope" are still such elsewhere in the world.


24 posted on 09/30/2005 11:43:20 AM PDT by ECM
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To: NormB; conserv13
Let's have a rational discussion on homosexuality in the Church!

Don't hold your breath. Among other things, that would require:

1) The massive number of gay priests to ask themselves honestly why the heck they want to serve in the priesthood of a church which explicitly condemns them, and

2) The Church to confront the fact that no normal heterosexual male wants to sign up for a life of celibacy, and that its choices are a) maintain the status quo and just look the other way, b) continue to require celibacy but crack down harshly on gay priests, and just suck it up as the already critically short supply of priests rapidly gets at least 25% shorter, while Catholics (and everybody else) remark on the huge exodus and the stark evidence it provides of the large percentage of the priesthood which is gay, or c) refute the pronouncements of a long string of Popes who have declared that celibacy is and always will be essential for priests, and start allowing priests to marry.

25 posted on 09/30/2005 11:43:47 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: conserv13

Actually the percentage of homosexuals (of both genders) in the general population is 2-3%. Not 10%.


26 posted on 09/30/2005 11:45:00 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Hat-Trick
I'm not Catholic, but am curious to know if the Pope has the authority to remove this defender of perversion from the Catholic priesthood?

The Pope has the authority, but he will not do it. The Pope is not going to remove anybody from the priesthood for simply questioning a non-dogmatic judgment.

27 posted on 09/30/2005 11:45:19 AM PDT by sinkspur (Breed every trace of the American Staffordshire Terrier out of existence!)
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To: CWW; jb6; TexasGreg
I have met many, many priests in my 43 years, and have only met one who was a homosexual and who was removed for molestation of a minor.

Here is an editorial, which appeared in The Kansas City Star just a couple of days ago defending a homosexual Jesuit. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/columnists/mary_sanchez/12748519.htm

Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church
Sad, risky policy of exclusion
MARY SANCHEZ

My favorite priest was gay.

I never knew that when he was alive.

Few did.

Father Thom Savage died of AIDS in 1999. (Hmmmmm, that leaves little doubt as to Fr. Savage keeping his vows of celebacy.)

So this can be said about him now, without fear that new decrees from the Vatican will out him, somehow canceling his work for God.

Father Savage was the enigmatic Jesuit priest who became president of Rockhurst University in 1988, when it still was Rockhurst College.

To say Father Savage was brilliant is an understatement of massive proportions. He graduated summa cum laude, made Phi Beta Kappa and held two master’s degrees and a doctorate.

While some newcomers take years to build the social connections and clout to make an impact, Father Savage seemed to have carried the ability with his luggage from the East Coast. He simply had it. No need for cultivation.

During his eight years in Kansas City, Father Savage served on many prestigious boards and co-chaired the city’s master plan.

I met him during his first days in Kansas City. As a young reporter, writing about higher education was among my duties. At 41, Father Savage was the youngest president of any Jesuit college in the nation.

Savage’s impressive resume had been well-documented. A short feature story to add a few details was all editors wanted. I requested half an hour, 45 minutes tops, of his time. I stayed in his office for three hours.

The afternoon was the best type of interview — more a conversation than a question-and-answer session. Father Savage was gregarious, savvy and clear about his vision for Rockhurst.

Later, the topics were less about social planning and more about faith. He became less the college president, more the Jesuit priest. I was less the reporter and more the young woman still wrestling with qualms spawned in parochial grade school.

We laughed at my memories of strict nuns and playgrounds where boys were separated from girls by a yellow painted line. We talked about how as a youngster my questions about doctrine were dismissed as being too questioning.

We discussed the church’s teachings at levels I’d never heard before.

He thought my problem was not a lack of faith but more an analytical mindset that had clashed with the way I had been first instructed.

I always say that had I known Jesuits earlier in life, many of my frustrations with Catholicism would have been lessened, if not eliminated.

That is a generalization. The truth is that the Jesuit who made the difference was Father Savage.

I suspect many people have stories of how this man affected their lives, as Catholics, as city planners, as elected officials, as professors and as students.

I applaud the church for attempting to further address the horror of priests who have abused young children. But homosexuality is not the same as pedophilia.

In fact, some priests and scholars who study the church have already suggested this move may aggravate, not solve, the problem of child abuse. Their reasoning is sound.

The priests who were convicted of sexual assaults did not go though seminary in more recent years, when the church began to be more pro-active and open about dealing with the difficulties of celibacy. The priests who caused the harm were more a function of the years when the church didn’t discuss such things. The approach inadvertently formed a haven for pedophiles.

And as a Catholic, the latest news from the Vatican saddens me.

The God I pray to created all human beings. I believe he made some of them gay.

I thank him for the Rev. Thom Savage.
28 posted on 09/30/2005 11:45:52 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: Hat-Trick

Probably the Jesuits' Superior General could do it, and the local bishop could also bar him from preaching or saying mass in his diocese. I don't know canon law well enough to know whether the Pope can personally defrock him...


29 posted on 09/30/2005 11:46:16 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: kcvl

damn.


30 posted on 09/30/2005 11:46:44 AM PDT by NormB (Yes, but watch your cookies!!)
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To: NormB

The Pope says "Tough cookies!"


31 posted on 09/30/2005 11:46:49 AM PDT by Constantine XIII
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat
It is time to suppress the Jesuits.


Amen.

32 posted on 09/30/2005 11:47:22 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: NormB
Estimates of the numbers of gays in the priesthood vary from 25 percent to 50 percent

..and all of them in the U.S.

33 posted on 09/30/2005 11:48:19 AM PDT by bkepley
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To: billbears

Three thousand years of sacred history speaks against homosexuality. To hell what this false priest says.


34 posted on 09/30/2005 11:49:46 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Windsong
Imagine that in main line protestant churches as well methodist, anglican, prebyterian etc.

And imagine this is also coming to a fundementalist or pentecostal church near you.

35 posted on 09/30/2005 11:51:06 AM PDT by Rocketman
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To: twigs
"If a man is a celibate, then he is not homosexual. Homosexuality is an action. "

No. Otherwise hetero sexuality is an action, a verb. They are nouns.

36 posted on 09/30/2005 11:52:17 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: ECM
Does anyone know if the Jesuits are still worth a damn outside of the US?

Although I do not doubt that some good Jesuit priests exist, the problems in their order are not confined to the US.

37 posted on 09/30/2005 11:52:31 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat; billbears; hombre_sincero; griz74; CWW
Its nice to see the the Christian Wahabbi Sect is out in force.
38 posted on 09/30/2005 11:52:40 AM PDT by markedman (Islam = surrender, and we will NEVER surrender!)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
I think they should let priests get married. Even gay priests.

I'm not a real good Catholic : )

39 posted on 09/30/2005 11:52:49 AM PDT by conserv13
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To: jb6
My God, I hope that's a lie.

I would hope so too, but a few nights ago on Catholic radio (EWTN), a caller phoned in with a question about how many seminarians are gay and the priest answering questions had to admit to 25-50%. So those are the church's own figures.

I knew a couple of gay priests in San Francisco. They had no love of God and certainly none for the Church, but found their life as priests "easy." "Where else would I have so much time off?" One of the priests I knew was HIV positive--the other was his lover. Beyond words!

So the church has become an unofficial hangout for gays. Probably a successful target of those pushing the gay agenda. They need to be excised before they bring the whole thing down--which is probably their intention in the first place.

In years past, I believe that some gays became priests for the right reasons and did not have sex. This wouldn't bother me any more than a straight priest with a strong attraction to women giving it up and staying celibate. But today, the gay thing is so massively disordered and destructive that even a celibate gay priest, if any, should probably get the boot.

40 posted on 09/30/2005 11:53:06 AM PDT by Veto! ( Left Coaster with nothing to fear but quakes and volcanos--and liberals)
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To: markedman

Why do so many of YOU see rules, tradition, integrity, honor, values, and automatically have to try to DESTROY it?


41 posted on 09/30/2005 11:54:43 AM PDT by hombre_sincero (www.spadata.com)
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To: NormB
"I find it insulting to demean their memory and their years of service by even hinting that they were unfit for priesthood because of their sexual orientation,"

I find it insulting to demean the Bible and God's divine will by even hinting that religious leaders, in God's Name, have the wickedness to allow for their own lust and sodomy in the highest calling on this earth. And if that hurts the memory of someone's years of service - boo hoo. It's not about people feeling good about themselves. It's about serving God the way God would be served. We're a bit stupid on this issue. God doesn't have to accept any thing that happens to land on the altar. There will be many in that day who will cry out to God and He will tell them to depart from His presence because He never knew them. This type of thing goes way back - Cain killed his brother out of a jealous rage because his own sacrice was crap and was rejected by God. What we're saying today is that we need to not hurt Cain's memory and say that his sacrifice was ok too. (pardon the scriptural paraphrases)
42 posted on 09/30/2005 11:55:06 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: markedman

Not in the least. If I choose to freely join a club or organization, I have the responsibility to live and act by the values that club or organization holds to be important. If I don't, then I may choose to leave that organization.


43 posted on 09/30/2005 11:58:32 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: conserv13

1.75% of the population is gay. The 10% is disinformation from the fifties that continues to be cited by the gay community.


44 posted on 09/30/2005 11:59:43 AM PDT by TexanToTheCore (Rock the pews, Baby)
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To: AMERIKA
"Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation --"

As my 2y/o grandson would say, "Ohhhhh Noooooooo".

45 posted on 09/30/2005 12:00:06 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: conserv13
Gays congregate in places example Hollywood, artists, hair cutting boutiques, colage faculties, certain government jobs.

Its not hard to believe when I have seen this move going on in Eccumenical and Evangelical churches since the 1970's -- these are the same churches that marched against the vietnam war, and have been involved in leftist politics -- is it a surprise that they have adopted the left's "patron saints" as their priests?

46 posted on 09/30/2005 12:00:20 PM PDT by Rocketman
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To: hombre_sincero
RE: "Why do so many of YOU see rules, tradition, integrity, honor, values, and automatically have to try to DESTROY it?"

You are obviously not very familiar with the history of "the traditions and values" of The Church. It is not I who is destroying The Church, but rather "thee" and your fellow Augustinian Wahabbists.
47 posted on 09/30/2005 12:01:29 PM PDT by markedman (Islam = surrender, and we will NEVER surrender!)
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To: CWW
"....cleptomaniac to work the jewelry counter at Nordstroms"

I really liked this analogy - thanks for sharing!
48 posted on 09/30/2005 12:02:44 PM PDT by csistrueblue (I'm glad I homeschool Ping!)
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To: NormB

"Estimates of the numbers of gays in the priesthood vary from 25 percent to 50 percent..."

Estimates that surely were issued by various gay lobbies and the definite minimum of 10 percent of homosexuals in the priesthood. This is abject crap. We cannot have a "rational discussion on homosexuality in the Church!" until we factor OUT all the Catholic bashers, Catholic haters, liberal-agenda and/or gay-agenda opportunists who want nothing more than to tear the institution of the Catholic Church down to BELOW its foundations, then replace it with a more "compassionate" version where at least half the priests will be women and the other half will wear hassocks that end just above their exposed pubic hair and plumbing, because it's really natural, and aren't all men really gay anyway?

The homosexual lobby and the MSM media (hmmm...one in the same?) have convinced a majority of Americans that homosexuals number 10+ percent of the male population is gay, when the real number is less than 3 percent. Now let's do some math. If their 10+ percent is actually less than one third of that...and if the article's 40 percent of gay priests is reduced by a bit over two-thirds, we arrive at the 10 percent or so of gay priests I cited above.

Scientific proof that the Catholic Church, for all its sins, still really scares the crap out of the Godless moral relativists, and that they'll do anything to chip more credibility away from it.

And for those here who would bring up "all the incidents of sexual molestation" among priests, always remember that the media created an hysterical whirlwind on this issue much like they did with the McMartin preschool case in California a while back.

Yes, there are predatory priests who will burn in hell for their sins and broken trust. And for every one of them there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of priests who have to go through their days knowing that many people, Catholic or not, think that they're actually homosexual child molesters. But they keep going, literally doing the Lord's Work.

Remember: the general impression, especially among non-Catholics, is that Catholic priests are overwhelmingly gay predators. Yet, even during the top of the media frenzy, the actual percentage of accused American priests was less than ONE PERCENT. You would have thought it was every damned one of them.

I am grateful for our new pope, who is pushing us back to a more conservative Church.


49 posted on 09/30/2005 12:02:44 PM PDT by John Robertson (Safe Travel)
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To: CWW

"Celibate homosexual" is an oxymoron.


50 posted on 09/30/2005 12:03:09 PM PDT by Al Simmons (The Choice in 2008 will be between Stalin and a Republican; Who will you help to elect?)
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