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Battle Over Model War Planes
cbs news ^ | 9/27/2005

Posted on 10/02/2005 3:13:50 PM PDT by tophat9000

Battle Over Model War Planes

RESTON, Va. , Sept. 27, 2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (CBS) What's happening down in this suburban Washington basement could be a threat to the Military Industrial Complex.

CBS News correspondent Rich Schlesinger reports that the threat warning comes from defense companies that build the real planes and say thousands of model lovers, such as 14-year-old Matt Jackson, are freeloading off their hard work.

Matt's working on an EA-6B Prowler – a Navy jet. Schlesinger asks Matt if he thinks he's ripping off the Navy in his basement.

"That's what I'm trying to do, yeah," says Matt.

The defense giants do hold trademarks on planes like the F-15, F-16 and the B-17, and they say if a model company uses their planes to build replicas, it should pay royalties.

John Long, who owns a model company, says the defense contractors don't deserve a penny, because these airplanes were developed with tax dollars.

"It could be as high as 10 percent of the product cost," Long says. "Now why should I pass additional costs on to the taxpayer for this product when he's already paid the price?"

It's a nasty little battle that has reached Capitol Hill, where the model companies are pushing a law to defend themselves from the defense industry. And even though the money involved is pocket change in the deep-pocketed mega corporations — they still want it.

"Cash is king," Long says.

The aerospace companies are very camera shy when it comes to this issue. But in a written statement, they say this is not about money, it's about protecting trademark rights.

"No, I don't believe them," Matt says. "I think it's mostly to do with the money."

There are thousands of model enthusiasts who have a stake in this war over warplanes. As the battle lines have been drawn between two of this nation's favorite pastimes — making models — and making money.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: dod; hobbies; model; modelairplanes; planes
This is lawyer stupidly run amuck... What interesting is where does it stop after all the plane manufacture does not make ever component on the plane so if you do a model F15 do you have to get a copywriter not just from the manufacture but also from the tire maker because you model plane has models of there tires and from the engine maker because you model shows model of the engines afterburner cans or the ejection seat maker etc

Model making is an artform like sculpting so if making a model is a copywriter violation of the image so is a photo or painting

1 posted on 10/02/2005 3:13:51 PM PDT by tophat9000
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To: tophat9000

Last time I was at he Air Force Museum the admission was FREE ! This was built with tax dollars to show what our tax dollars were used for in the history of aviation warfare .Awesome place .Recommend it to everyone of all ages .


2 posted on 10/02/2005 3:26:12 PM PDT by Renegade
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To: tophat9000
On the legal side, it all comes down to the contact. If our representatives want to let the manufacturer keep the trademark rights, or not, they can specify it.

Of course, those morons should realize that when little boys develop enthusiasm for military planes, they will tend to support higher defense procurements in the long run.

If I were them, I'd ask for a nominal royalty, and then donate it to the Boy Scouts. That way, I'd be sure that production was limited to domestic manufacturers of models. Make the Chinese imports pay through the nose.
3 posted on 10/02/2005 3:30:10 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: tophat9000
so if you do a model F15 do you have to get a copywriter not just from the manufacture but also from the tire maker


It's about trademarks (e.g. "F-15") and not replicating the airplane. Of course, they need to explain how a trademark covering aircraft applies to the sale of children's models. Totally different classes of goods, and the use on different goods does not diminish the value of the trademark (it arguably increases it.)
4 posted on 10/02/2005 3:32:05 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: tophat9000
Union Pacific recently started a similar campaign, requiring railroad model manufacturers to pay royalties or face lawsuits, for all of their acquired railroads, including the Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Denver and Rio Grande, etc. The claim was that they had to do this, otherwise they lose the right to defend their trademarks.In contrast, Burlington Northern Santa Fe has not only declined to follow suit, but actively worked with Microsoft on their Train Simulator Product.

The result has not only been a black eye for UP, but a PR boost for BNSF. Moral of the story: don't always listen to counsel...

5 posted on 10/02/2005 3:35:38 PM PDT by HolgerDansk ("Oh Bother", said Pooh, as he worked the bolt.)
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To: tophat9000
The defense giants do hold trademarks on planes like the F-15, F-16 and the B-17, and they say if a model company uses their planes to build replicas, it should pay royalties.

Then why don't car manufacturers who are not supported by taxpayers like the defense industry demanding to do the same?

6 posted on 10/02/2005 3:36:03 PM PDT by Bommer
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To: tophat9000
Let's see

I'm going to start making mini nickel size hamburgers that taste like cardboard.

Think McDonald's will sue me???

7 posted on 10/02/2005 3:38:17 PM PDT by JZoback ("There's a pony in here somewhere")
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To: tophat9000

Great thinking on the part of defense contractors. Model airplanes will be exclusively manufactured in Chinese knock-off shops and sold in flea markets around the country.


8 posted on 10/02/2005 3:40:42 PM PDT by Nachoman
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To: Bommer

Defense giants are being jerks. Scale models are a free form of advertising of their companies capabilities. Interest in scale models of defense equipment increases the hobbyists interest to look up info on it. They learn the history, the capability and etc, and when they grow up they become an educated voter on defense matters. I know many servicemen who first became interested in military matters as a kid building scale models of tanks, planes and ships.


9 posted on 10/02/2005 3:42:14 PM PDT by Fee (Great powers never let minor allies dictate who, where and when they must fight.)
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To: Bommer
"Then why don't car manufacturers who are not supported by taxpayers like the defense industry demanding to do the same?"

Because the auto manufacturers, being REAL capalists (instead of pseudo-capitalists "sucking the government tit"), understand that car and truck models are FREE ADVERTISING.

10 posted on 10/02/2005 3:44:07 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Beelzebubba
That way, I'd be sure that production was limited to domestic manufacturers of models. Make the Chinese imports pay through the nose.

Good idea – very few American model manufacturers left. Most of what I pick up are made in China, Korea or Japan.
11 posted on 10/02/2005 3:45:24 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: tophat9000
"This is lawyer stupidly run amuck.."

Repeat forever!

12 posted on 10/02/2005 3:47:46 PM PDT by litehaus
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To: tophat9000
This is scary.

Further proof the bean counters are running the show instead of what we use to call in aerospace: "aircrafters".

The dumb *ast@r&s are to stupid to know the next generation of aviation professionals usually start with static models and move to control and R/C, Ergo Burt Rutan.

They are destroying the next generation of folks they will need to hire......

13 posted on 10/02/2005 3:47:57 PM PDT by taildragger
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To: tophat9000

Is not copywrite, or copyleft, is copyRIGHT. I am series!


14 posted on 10/02/2005 3:51:47 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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To: tophat9000

BTTT


15 posted on 10/02/2005 3:53:57 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (Tagline Repair Service. Let us fix those broken Taglines. Inquire within(Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: JZoback
Let's see

I'm going to start making mini nickel size hamburgers that taste like cardboard.

. Think McDonald's will sue me???

No...but White Castle might!

16 posted on 10/02/2005 3:54:09 PM PDT by Don Corleone (Leave the gun..take the cannoli)
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To: HolgerDansk
Union Pacific recently started a similar campaign, requiring railroad model manufacturers to pay royalties or face lawsuits...

Being a model railroader, I've read about this idiocy. You would think railroads would look at models as free advertising. I guess it's a case of an oversupply of lawyers and an undersupply of public relations.

17 posted on 10/02/2005 3:54:12 PM PDT by 6SJ7
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To: tophat9000
John Long, who owns a model company, says the defense contractors don't deserve a penny, because these airplanes were developed with tax dollars.

True.

18 posted on 10/02/2005 3:55:28 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: tophat9000

MAZDA has started the same idiocy over their little roadster the MIATA claiming foul if you form a "MIATA" club or make "MIATA" pins or the like. Definetly the work of Harvard Business School graduates who have previously demonstrated their business acumen by running the US Airline industry into the ground. IDIOTS!


19 posted on 10/02/2005 3:58:32 PM PDT by Don Corleone (Leave the gun..take the cannoli)
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To: Renegade
Last time I was at he Air Force Museum the admission was FREE ! This was built with tax dollars to show what our tax dollars were used for in the history of aviation warfare .Awesome place .Recommend it to everyone of all ages .

The one at Wright-Patterson? NOT to be missed, if you're anywhere near the place. It's one of the most amazing museums that I have ever been in. Be sure also to visit The Annex- on the other side of the field, where you can walk through every Air Force One except the current one, which is busy, of course. GREAT museum!

20 posted on 10/02/2005 3:59:26 PM PDT by Riley ("Bother" said Pooh, as he fired the Claymores.)
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To: 6SJ7
Being a model railroader, I've read about this idiocy.

Road, era and scale?

I am not in a position to do any model railroading at the moment, but Northwestern Pacific / 1870-1940 / O and On3.

21 posted on 10/02/2005 4:02:03 PM PDT by Riley ("Bother" said Pooh, as he fired the Claymores.)
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To: Beelzebubba
I have on my office wall a calendar showing US war planes. Should the aircraft manufacturors get a royalty when a picture of one of their planes appears on a poster or calendar? I don't think so.

What is a model, except a three-dimensional reduced-size image of the plane?

22 posted on 10/02/2005 4:02:41 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor
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To: tophat9000

"I think it's mostly to do with the money."

You're partially right kid, it's all to do with money.


23 posted on 10/02/2005 4:11:15 PM PDT by jwh_Denver (Become a liberal. Try to make everyone's life miserable.)
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To: Beelzebubba

The model designation is provided by the military, not the company, as part of the contracting process. The F-111D that I worked on was built by General Dynamics, while the EF-111 Raven was rebuilt from older models of F-111 by McDonnel-Douglas, IIRC.


24 posted on 10/02/2005 4:11:19 PM PDT by Old Student (WRM, MSgt, USAF(Ret.))
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To: Riley

Didn't get to the Annex side yet . Planning a trip that way next summer .Went to the 100 year anniversary of flight at Kitty Hawk, 12/03. Air Force I buzzed the field at low level taking W back to Washington after his speech .Hard to imagine machines that big actually get into the air .


25 posted on 10/02/2005 4:12:14 PM PDT by Renegade
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To: Beelzebubba
If I were them, I'd ask for a nominal royalty, and then donate it to the Boy Scouts. That way, I'd be sure that production was limited to domestic manufacturers of models. Make the Chinese imports pay through the nose.

That's what I love about FR. There is always someone with an intelligent and workable answer to almost every issue.

26 posted on 10/02/2005 4:12:52 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Beelzebubba
"It's about trademarks (e.g. "F-15")"

Doubt it, F-15 is a USG assigned designation, "Eagle" is a company specific "common name" (usually or often not used in life - "fighting Falcon" (gag) versus Hoover, "Thunderbolt II" versus Hog...).

Boeing could complain about "dreamliner" or 787, but it'd be really, really, dumb (who cares about modeling passenger haulers?).

I don't have a clue about what would be the reason for such a stupid brouhaha, but it could kill what is already a lagging industry/hobby/learning tool.

PS: Clearing out my folk's house; found three trunks full of '50 - '70s kits, motors, and assorted parts, I'm already started with a "new' control line fighter I'll probably build and never fly...the BEST therapy.

27 posted on 10/02/2005 4:17:33 PM PDT by norton
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To: Beelzebubba
The Term F15 is the term given to the Airplane by the Military. It is not a trademark.

IMO the jet design and the name of the Jet are in the public domain the second they contract to sell the plane to the US Military. It is commissioned by the military and thus if there are any trademark rights, they belong to the taxpayers.

28 posted on 10/02/2005 4:18:17 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: tophat9000
All I can say to Boeing, McDonald, Douglas, Fairchild, Lockheed, et al is-


29 posted on 10/02/2005 4:31:45 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: tophat9000

This also involves the Flight Sim community as well. They are not allowing companies to develop computer models of they're company named aircraft, or ships, unless you pay them off. Corporate greed at its finest, and they don't even try to hide it.


30 posted on 10/02/2005 4:39:24 PM PDT by Lancer_N3502A
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To: tophat9000

Next they will be trying to make people pay the companies for drawing pictures of their aircrafts.


31 posted on 10/02/2005 4:40:57 PM PDT by Chewbacca (Not all men are fools. The smart ones are still bachelors.)
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To: Lancer_N3502A
Like most of you, I'm not a big fan of the MSM, especially the Communist Broadcasting Company, but I'm a BIG modeler and a flight sim nut, and it was a good broadcast.
32 posted on 10/02/2005 4:44:40 PM PDT by Lancer_N3502A
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To: Bommer
Then why don't car manufacturers who are not supported by taxpayers like the defense industry demanding to do the same?

They do. Try producing any recognizable commercial vehicle made by the top automakers and see if their licensing people don't make you an offer you can't refuse. They can ding you on the corporate name, pertinent trademarks, and any specific design (e.g., "57 Chevy Bel-Air body styling"). Some want a flat fee, others want that plus a per-piece royalty, still others want some combination of the two. The level of tribute varies from licensor to licensor, and the addition of a third-party who represents the licensor may take a cut as well.

Agreements vary widely both in the obvious costs and levels of irritation to the licensee (which are hidden costs); I work with a few OEM manufacturers that are so anally retentive (or who have an office full of marketing types justifying their salaries) that they will dictate every aspect of the replica. When the placement of a comma on the product package ends up costing three weeks of lead time and hundreds of dollars of design time, only to revert back to the original placement, you long for the "old days."

I will concede that the whole process occasionally results in a more accurate product, but it just as often does not.

33 posted on 10/02/2005 4:46:31 PM PDT by niteowl77 (A soldier's dad once again.)
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To: taildragger
HOW STUPID can these Guys Be--- For Every 10,000 models built, There will be one or Two who "Come Up With" a "Better Idea!"

THAT Better Idea is WORTH the 10,000 Models!

The Manufacture of "Model Airplanes" is a POSITIVE Effort in our Culture.

To Discourage that effort is LUDICROUS!

I am UTTERLY Apalled that ANYONE would try to STOP Americans from making Model Airplanes!!

Americans have been making models for--AT LEAST--100 Years!!

GOOD GRIEF!!--Since WHEN has "Modeling" become a "Natiomal Security Issue??"

MeThinks that this as a "Phoney, Manufactured Issue."

Those who Build Models are likely to be the MOST DEVOTED Citizens!

"Model-Building" is a TOTAL "NON-ISSUE!!"

Doc

34 posted on 10/02/2005 4:56:55 PM PDT by Doc On The Bay
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To: Lancer_N3502A

"This also involves the Flight Sim community as well. They are not allowing companies to develop computer models of they're company named aircraft, or ships, unless you pay them off. Corporate greed at its finest, and they don't even try to hide it."

And we aren't talking about current production here: Games designed to recreate WWII aircraft are victim of this legal idiocy.


35 posted on 10/02/2005 5:22:24 PM PDT by M1911A1 (clad in appropriate pants)
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To: Leo Carpathian
Is not copywrite, or copyleft, is copyRIGHT. I am series!

Whoa! This is hugh!
36 posted on 10/02/2005 5:48:46 PM PDT by NonLinear (He's dead, Jim)
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To: tophat9000
The defense giants do hold trademarks on planes like the F-15, F-16 and the B-17, and they say if a model company uses their planes to build replicas, it should pay royalties

I didn't believe this story when I first read it. There was no
actual defense spokesperson or specific incident mentioned,
so I thought it must be CBS pulling another "Dan Rather"
until I saw the other posts corroborating it. This is shear
lunacy!

37 posted on 10/02/2005 6:18:47 PM PDT by higgmeister (Is that OK to say?)
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To: tophat9000
WOW! ..Shakespeare's Henry the X, Had it right, "Kill the Lawyers." ...not really.

Maybe my ol' "STAR TREK" model design (TOS '73) can be "cash-outed", too.

38 posted on 10/02/2005 10:00:57 PM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :^)
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To: P-Marlowe

The Term F15 is the term given to the Airplane by the Military. It is not a trademark.



Such things can indeed become trademarks by use, if the procurement contract doesn't prohibit it.

Blame government.


39 posted on 10/03/2005 7:51:45 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: tophat9000

Q: What's the difference between an accident and a calamity?
A: It's an accident when a bus full of lawyers plunges off the road into a river. It's a calamity if they can swim.


40 posted on 10/30/2005 4:22:25 AM PST by Valin (Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum)
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To: tophat9000

>>>The defense giants do hold trademarks on planes like the F-15, F-16 and the B-17, and they say if a model company uses their planes to build replicas, it should pay royalties.

Who would this be? Maybe it is contractors? If it is contractors that build the planes, this whiney article makes more sense.

I can't imagine it would be the actual Navy or Air Force et al. I would think they would embrace the positive image the models gives and promotes for them.

Especially in a time of war. Propaganda is a great tool.


41 posted on 10/30/2005 4:30:49 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Valin

ROFL!


42 posted on 10/30/2005 4:31:17 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: tophat9000

They think making plastic models is copyright infringement?

These aircraft manufacturers are sniffing glue.


43 posted on 10/30/2005 4:33:55 AM PST by ovrtaxt (You nonconformists are all the same.)
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To: Larry Lucido
That's what I love about FR. There is always someone with an intelligent and workable answer to almost every issue.

I'll second that! definitely worth the price of admisson!

44 posted on 10/30/2005 4:38:53 AM PST by Fierce Allegiance (Why is it you never hear "gender equality" mentioned in a divorce court?)
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