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Sources ID TATP As Component Of [OU] Bomb (called 'Mother of Satan' by Islamist extremists)
KOCO TV Channel 5 ^ | 10/4/05

Posted on 10/04/2005 8:53:21 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana

Sources Identify TATP As Component Of Bomb TATP Same Component Used By Infamous Shoe Bomber

POSTED: 9:56 pm CDT October 4, 2005 UPDATED: 10:11 pm CDT October 4, 2005

NORMAN, Okla. -- Sources confirmed Tuesday night that at least one of the components in the bomb used by Joel Henry Hinrichs III Saturday night was a product called TATP.

Technically, TATP is triacetone triperoxide. However, it's called the 'Mother of Satan' by Islamist extremists. Experts say it is made by mixing common household items such as drain cleaner and bleach to create a white powder with a strong smell.

It's so volatile that it can explode even if it's merely dropped. It can even explode spontaneously, experts say.

There have been very few reports of TATP being used in the United States; however, there have been more documented cases overseas -- including Richard Reid, who was arrested after he used TATP in his shoe and tried to light it on a flight.

The FBI is testing materials from the OU student's backpack, and from Hinrichs' apartment. Sources said a chemist from FBI headquarters was flown to Oklahoma to help with the gathering of evidence to be used for testing.

However, FBI officials will not comment on any aspect of the investigation, including what sources have told Eyewitness News 5.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bomber; hinrichs; normanbombing; oubomber; oubombing; tatp
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Hmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
1 posted on 10/04/2005 8:53:22 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana
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To: PhiKapMom; indcons; Lizarde; MizSterious; LibertyRocks

ping


2 posted on 10/04/2005 8:54:13 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana (No amnesty needed...My ancestors proudly served. [remodel of an old '70s bumper sticker])
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To: hispanarepublicana

Okay...this story is getting some MSM attention finally!!


3 posted on 10/04/2005 8:55:42 PM PDT by indcons (FReepmail PhiKapMom and Indcons to join the "Norman bombing" ping list.)
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To: hispanarepublicana

This makes it more likely he was on his own - TATP is what people use when safety is not a consideration relative to ready availability of materials - not something an Al Quaida cell is likely to choose.


4 posted on 10/04/2005 8:56:15 PM PDT by gondramB (Conservatism is a positive doctrine. Reactionaryism is a negative doctrine.)
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To: hispanarepublicana

There are things about his story that just make my neck hairs stand on end.


5 posted on 10/04/2005 8:56:31 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Proud to be a Rush bot.)
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To: MNJohnnie

just your neck?


6 posted on 10/04/2005 8:57:11 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana (No amnesty needed...My ancestors proudly served. [remodel of an old '70s bumper sticker])
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To: Lizarde; MizSterious; LibertyRocks

I assume you folks want to be on the "Norman bombing" ping list.


7 posted on 10/04/2005 8:57:26 PM PDT by indcons (FReepmail PhiKapMom and Indcons to join the "Norman bombing" ping list.)
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To: gondramB

I think you need to see the Channel 9 video at newsok.com


8 posted on 10/04/2005 8:57:33 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana (No amnesty needed...My ancestors proudly served. [remodel of an old '70s bumper sticker])
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To: gondramB

He tried to buy Ammonium Nitrate as well. Do you think that choice suggests something too? I don't know anything about explosives.


9 posted on 10/04/2005 8:58:47 PM PDT by indcons (FReepmail PhiKapMom and Indcons to join the "Norman bombing" ping list.)
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To: hoosiermama; hispanarepublicana; PhiKapMom; indcons; mplsconservative

Ping to members of the "Norman bombing" ping list.


10 posted on 10/04/2005 8:59:34 PM PDT by indcons (FReepmail PhiKapMom and Indcons to join the "Norman bombing" ping list.)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: hispanarepublicana

So no ammonium nitrate?


12 posted on 10/04/2005 9:01:05 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter
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To: Texas Songwriter

he wasn't allowed to buy it but not for lack of trying


13 posted on 10/04/2005 9:01:35 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana (No amnesty needed...My ancestors proudly served. [remodel of an old '70s bumper sticker])
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To: hispanarepublicana

Transcription of pages 299-302 from The Third Terrorist by Jayna Davis, as requested by her:

The FBI arrested Murad in early 1995 for conspiring with reputed Iraqi intelligence operative Ramzi Yousef in "Project Bojinka," a thwarted plot to detonate bombs aboard 12 US airliners originating in the Philippines in a murderous rampage over the Pacific Ocean. While being interrogated, the ME (Middle Eastern) terrorist hinted at a future scheme (paradigm for the 9/11 strikes) in which Muslim fundamentalists would train at US flight schools to learn to hijack commercial jetliners. One plan involved the recruitment of suicide pilots to dive bomb the Virginia-based CIA headquarters aboard general aviation aircraft rigged with explosives.

After conducting a perfunctory investigation, Murad's far-fetched tale of unspeakable carnage to come dissolved into the file of "false" leads. The stratospheric intelligence failure would not fully sink in until the FBI retraced the domestic flight instruction of the 19 AQ executioners. Their aviation skills were not only made in the USA, but several were previously flagged as visa violators and suspected terrorists who melted through the so-called safety net of intelligence gathering.

Yet even in death, their soulless eyes proved inescapable as their photographs dominated the international airwaves. Three men in particularly instantly jogged the memory of the motel owner where Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols once met with their ME handlers.

"Jayna, I've toiled with coming forward with this, but I can't shake the image of their faces," Cactus owner Randy Christian said with timid sincerity. "I'm positive three of the 9/11 hijackers visited my motel a month before the attacks."

Twin Towers/Terrorist Motel Intersection

Just 4 days before the WTC disintegrated on live tv, Randy recounted his fantastic story. The self-styled ringleader Mohamed Atta, his dutiful sidekick Marwan Al-Shehhi, and the surviving would-be hijacker Zacarias Moussaoui entered the Cactus Motel lobby in early August 2001. The trio inquired about renting a room with a kitchenette, but the owner cordially explained there were no vacancies.

Acting as the group's decision maker, Atta sauntered across the room, standing an arm's length from the owner. "We're going to be attending flight school in Norman and would really like to stay at your motel because we have heard such good things about it," the slight framed man insisted as he broke into a broad smile.

Randy considered Atta's persistence quite peculiar gaiven the ample availability of discount motels that provided convenient proximity to the Norman aviation schools.

"Our motel is at least a 30 mile drive, one way. I'm sure ou will have no problem renting a room at a reasonable rate much closer," Randy graciously suggested. But Atta, conspicuously clad in a heavy leather flight jacket on a blistering hot summer day was not dissuaded. He gushed with compliments about the outstanding reputation of Randy'shotel. In hindsight, themen appointed to die in a few short weeks, intended to deliver yet another humiliating slap in the face to American law enforcement by signing theirnames to the register at the very motel that served as the staging grounds for their ME predecessors, as if to say, "Ignore us at your own peril."

Shortly after the WTC disaster, Randy reluctantly promised me, "I'm going to report this to the FBI. But given my past history with the Murrah Building attack, I don't expect they will want to hear from me, much less take my statement. Regardless, I know it's the right thing to do."

"Did anyone else witness the meeting?" I inquired.

"Yes. The desk clerk on duty that day remembers the arrival of 3 men who pressed for a discounted rate to rent a kitchenette, but he does not recall what they looked like," he explained.

As expected, Randy's recorded voice message at FBI headquarters in OKC was ignored for several months. However, federal investigators exhibited a fortuitous change of heart after one of my law enforcement sources pressured OKC Police Sergeant Jerry Flowers, a ranking member of the newly formed OKC Joint Terrorism Task Force, to check into Randy Christian's testimony. On December 19, 2001, Sgt. Flowers and an FBI agent debriefed Andy about-his unforgettable encounter with Aatta, Al-Shehhi and Moussaoui.

When Randy contacted me in September 2001, the international travels and movements of the 9/11 terrorists indie the US had not yet been reported. But the official indictment against suspected AQ operative, Zacarias Moussaoui would yield a windfall of eagerly awaited corroboration. The government's prosecutorial evidence trail established that Moussaoui remained in Oklahoma through August of 2001, the same time frame in which Atta and his terrorist comrades purportedly visited the Cactus Motel. Maussaoui arrived in the Sooner State in February to attend Airman FLight School in Norman. The training lasted until May, but the French citizen of Morroccan descent resided in Oklahoma through the summer months to receive a $14,000 transfer from train stations in Dusseldorf and Hamburg, Germany. Bin Laden chieftain, Ramzi Bin Al-Shibh, wired the funds to Massaoui on August 1 and 3, 2001.

FBI - Fumbling Bumbling Investigation

The July 2003 omnibus congressional reporting into pre-September 11 intelligence failures admonished the OKC FBI field office as a repeat offender in the maddening chain of missed clues. The thread to America's heartland unravels to August 16, 2001, and a pivotal opportunity squandered in the string of government blunders. Federal authorities detained and charged Zacarias Moussaoui for an expired visa, but immigration violations merely opened a legal gateway to make the arrest. Maussaoui, a flight student with no pilot's license, less than 50 hours in the cockpit of civil aircraft, and no instruction on sophisticated commercial jets, paid $6,800 cash to train on a Boeing 747 simulator. The Islamic fundamentalist expressed an "ego boosting" desire to learn to fly from Heathrow Airport in England to JFK Airport in New York.

Minnesota FBI agents were frantically seeking evidence to warrant logging on to the potential hijacker's computer hard drive. Urgency in this case could not be overstated. The OKC field office was commissioned to assist. On August 23, two agents assigned to the international terrorism squad were dispatched to Airman Flight School in Norman where Moussaoui previously attended, but it wasn't their first visit. In 1999, the Oklahoma field office made inquiries about Osama bin Laden's chief pilot who had received training at the same aviation facility. Unfortunately, that pertinent fact slipped the lead FBI agent's mind when conducting the Maussaoui probe, depriving the Minnesota field office of critical information in its quest to obtain a search warrant.

Congress violated yet another intelligence gaffe during its inquiry. In August 2001, when INS officials nabbed Moussaoui and his roommate, Hussein Al-Attas, a notorious individual attempted to post bond for Al-Attas. That individual had been "the subject of a full field FBI international terrorism investigation in the Oklahoma City Field Office." Apparently, this unnamed former or current Oklahoma resident had impressive terrorist credentials that included "Vice President of Overseas Operations and Recruiting for AL-Fatah" as well as membership in the Muslim Brotherhood. The FBI "person of interest" was depicted as a close associate of the Muslim cleric who reportedly administered spiritual guidance to two of the 9/11 hijackers. The Justice Department invoked the "national security" shield when refusing to confirm or deny if the Oklahoma City FBI probe into the Al-Fatah recruiter was still alive.

Cactus Connection to Al Qaeda Comrade

The trail of Oklahoma missteps may trace as far back as April 19, 1995. On October 11, 2001, the FBI arrested Mujahid Abdulqaadir Menepta of Norman, OK, as a material witness in connection with the terror campaign of 9/11, charges that were never proven. Federal authorities detained the 51 year old Menepta because of his close friendship with alleged conspirator, Moussaoui. The twosome socialized during Moussaoui's training at Airman Flight School. On an October 2, 2001, interview with the Daily Oklahoman, Menepta vehemently defended Moussaoui, calling him a "scapegoat."

"I saw him daily at the mosque. We'd eat together sometimes. I don't think he is a terrorist, Menepta said. "I understand terrorism quite well. I am a victim of terror, America's terror. I am a descendant of slaves." The Missouri native changed his name from Melvin Lattimore to Mujahid Menepta after converting to the Muslim faith in 1989. One year later, he traveled to Pakistan to study Islam.

The FBI confiscated 3 weapons and 600 rounds of ammunition during the October 2001 search of Menepta's Norman home. WWeeks later, the former felon pleaded guilty to illegal possession of firearms. But the ensuing courtroom drama made it abundantly clear that the weapons charges provided a means to keep Menepta in custody after federal investigators failed to tie the ex-convict to the 9/11 attacks.

According to the November 7, 2001 federal court testimony of ATF Agent Jeffrey Whitney, a government informant who characterized Menepta as "violent" surfaced within 24 hours of the 1995 Murrah Building bombing. The source told the FBI Menepta was a member of a radical Islamic group in Norman and St. Louis that spewed vitriol against the US and advocated destroying government targets, killing police officers, and committing terrorist acts. The informant also claimed he witnessed Menepta threatening to shoot any police officer who entered the prayer area of a St. Louis mosque where he worshipped.

End page 302

Next page, Cactus Motel manager Gary Hammerstein singled out a picture of Menepta as a guest at the hotel in the spring of 1993. Menepta was always buying 50 cent cups of coffee and paying with $50 and $100 bills.


14 posted on 10/04/2005 9:01:38 PM PDT by Peach (Go Yankees!)
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To: indcons

"He tried to buy Ammonium Nitrate as well. Do you think that choice suggests something too? I don't know anything about explosives."

Unfortunately we know how effective a fuel fertilizer bomb can be... but dropping down to TATP says something about his resources, I think - Now the Shoe bomber used TATP too so maybe I am wrong but I've wondered if he wan't a loner too.

BTW, I generally don't post Wikipedia links but in this case they seem to have a good article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TATP


15 posted on 10/04/2005 9:02:51 PM PDT by gondramB (Conservatism is a positive doctrine. Reactionaryism is a negative doctrine.)
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To: hispanarepublicana

He made his own TATP? Wow...TATP is one bad mama-jama of an explosive. You can get instructions on how to make it on the Internet, however, very few people use it, due to its high volatility. However, Islamofascists like TATP, even if they don't normally want to mess with it...easy to get the 72 virgins though.


16 posted on 10/04/2005 9:02:56 PM PDT by JRios1968 (Serving fresh wit everyday, for 36 years.)
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To: hispanarepublicana
just your neck?

Well did not want to gross anyone out but all my hair is bristling on this one. Considering some of the wacko rhetoric being posted on some of the Leftist websites, this is NOT a good thing even if it is just an example of lone wolf wacko post teenage angst. Too many Leftist wackos currently claiming to be in love with the idea of political violence. Would not be surprised if we see copy cats.

17 posted on 10/04/2005 9:03:02 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Proud to be a Rush bot.)
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To: indcons

DOn't know how long it will take the feds to "put pieces together", But really don't expect much action until they "tie up a few loose ends"

I look in the crystal ball and see several raids and arrests in OK in the near future.


18 posted on 10/04/2005 9:03:42 PM PDT by hoosiermama
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To: hispanarepublicana

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1496759/posts
(Michelle Malkin) THE OKLAHOMA SUICIDE BOMBER
Michelle Malkin dot com ^ | 10-4-05 | Michelle Malkin


19 posted on 10/04/2005 9:04:27 PM PDT by MEG33 (GOD BLESS OUR ARMED FORCES)
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To: not_apathetic_anymore


20 posted on 10/04/2005 9:05:16 PM PDT by indcons (FReepmail PhiKapMom and Indcons to join the "Norman bombing" ping list.)
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To: investigateworld; not_apathetic_anymore

Sorry about the blank post...PING to new members.


21 posted on 10/04/2005 9:06:12 PM PDT by indcons (FReepmail PhiKapMom and Indcons to join the "Norman bombing" ping list.)
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To: hispanarepublicana

Awwwwwww...the pighumpers named an explosive chemical after Virginia Clinton. How sweet.


22 posted on 10/04/2005 9:06:15 PM PDT by RichInOC ("The coffee is strong at Cafe du Monde, the doughnuts are too hot to touch..." Save the Big Greasy!)
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To: All

turning in. 'night.


23 posted on 10/04/2005 9:06:33 PM PDT by hispanarepublicana (No amnesty needed...My ancestors proudly served. [remodel of an old '70s bumper sticker])
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To: tortoise; Admin Moderator

It would be a good idea for you to not discuss HMTD on FR or anywhere else on the web (post #11).


24 posted on 10/04/2005 9:08:56 PM PDT by defenderSD ("I am not a troll" said the troll as a thunderous Zot descended on him.)
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To: indcons
He tried to buy Ammonium Nitrate as well. Do you think that choice suggests something too? I don't know anything about explosives.

Ammonium nitrate is generally pretty difficult to work with in the sense that it is very hard to get a sustained detonation without the proper setup and a little competence. While very popular in the mindshare of the public, it is quite a bit safer in that rank amateurs will have a hard time getting results out of it. TATP is much, much easier for an amateur to deploy successfully.

25 posted on 10/04/2005 9:09:51 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: indcons

Will you put me on the bomber's ping list?


26 posted on 10/04/2005 9:13:06 PM PDT by agooga
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To: MNJohnnie

Do not overpsych yourself. Acetone peroxide is indeed makeable from acetone, hydrogen peroxide and mild acids, but like every other peroxide it is seriously unstable. Stabilization is possible to a limited extent, but is non-trivial. The probability of the stuff going off on it own volition is always pretty high. Thus it is a kind of experiment young pyrotechnically-inclined kids will always try to perform, but rarely more than once.


27 posted on 10/04/2005 9:13:29 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: gondramB
israelinsider.com/articles

Israeli invention detects TATP explosives

By: Israel Insider staff and partners

Published: January 27, 2005

Researchers from Israel's Technion in Haifa have developed a device to detect the kind of improvised explosives increasingly used by Arab terror groups.

The new detector, named the Peroxide Explosive Tester (PET), looks like a three-color ball-point pen. The device releases three chemical mixtures that change color upon interaction with the suspected explosive materials.

A relatively new difficult-to-detect explosive material called triacetone-triperoxide (TATP), commonly known as acetone peroxide, is one of a group of explosives based on the unstable peroxide group of compounds. It is increasingly being utilized by terror groups, who used it in the Dolphinarium Disco massacre, several bomb attacks in downtown Jerusalem, and the failed attempt to down a passenger plane by Muslim shoe-bomber Richard Reid.

One of the most alarming attributes of TATP is that it cannot be detected by bomb-sniffing dogs, making it easier to smuggle into airports and onto airplanes. It is also very easy to synthesize in clandestine labs, using readily available chemicals.

"To our great surprise," PET's inventor, Prof. Ehud Keinan, Dean of the Technion's Faculty of Chemistry, wrote in the Journal of the American Chemical Society, "we discovered that TATP is very different from all other conventional explosives in that it does not release heat during the explosion. It explodes by rapid decomposition of every solid-state molecule to four gas-phase molecules. This rare phenomenon, scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion', is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during accidents."

=======================================================================================================

{My goodness, now this is just an interesting little chemistry project isn't it?}

In addition to Prof. Keinan, the research that made PET possible was carried out by Prof. Yehuda Zeiri of the Nuclear Research Center in the Negev, and Professors Ronnie Kosloff and Joseph Almog of Jerusalem's Hebrew University, together with their research teams.

28 posted on 10/04/2005 9:14:31 PM PDT by Rockpile
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To: tortoise
Ammonium nitrate is generally pretty difficult to work with in the sense that it is very hard to get a sustained detonation without the proper setup...

Unless you let the mixture sit around to long, then the slurry can become very unstable.AWB

29 posted on 10/04/2005 9:14:39 PM PDT by Americanwolfsbrother (Don't hate on someone for using their mind.)
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To: hispanarepublicana

Acetone peroxide (triacetone triperoxide, peroxyacetone, TATP, TCAP) is an organic peroxide. It is a high explosive that can be made from common household items: acetone, hydrogen peroxide, and sulfuric acid. Other strong acids such as hydrochloric acid may also be used as a catalyst. Since its precursors are readily available, it is commonly used by amateur chemists and explosive makers, often for detonators, and is sometimes found in improvised explosive devices. It takes the form of a white crystalline powder with a distinctive acrid smell.

It is highly heat, friction, and shock sensitive. Professional chemists have been injured attempting to use it. Once manufactured the material can degrade during storage, becoming less likely to explode. For its instability, it has been called the "Mother of Satan".


http://tinyurl.com/almxp


******


The explosive was triacetone triperoxide (TATP), commonly known as acetone peroxide, one of a group of explosives based on the unstable peroxide group of compounds. TATP is one of the most sensitive explosives known, being extremely sensitive to impact, temperature change and friction. The TATP was blended with a second explosive called pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN), which is also a key ingredient in Semtex.

According to the FBI agent Margaret Cronin, an expert witness on air crime, in a much used quote from her testimony at Reid's trial, the explosive "if placed beside an outer wall could have or would have created a large hole in the fuselage of the plane".

snip

The delicate nature of TATP might warn off sensible people, but not terrorists. TATP comes with two big advantages. First of all, unlike other types of explosive, it cannot be detected by sniffer dogs, so it is easier to smuggle into airports and onto airplanes. The second advantage is one of the main reasons that this explosive is used at all - it is very easy to synthesise in clandestine labs.

TATP is prepared from three ingredients that are readily available in local stores. All you need are acetone, hydrogen peroxide and any mineral acid (such as hydrochloric acid). The method of manufacture is so well-known that it appears in terrorist cookbooks and on many different sites on the World-Wide Web


******


On 7 July, four bomb blasts on London’s transport system killed at least 54 people and injured hundreds more. Evidence led investigators to search houses in Leeds, where three of the four suspected suicide bombers lived. In one house they found traces of triacetone triperoxide (TATP). The white crystalline powder is so unstable that police immediately widened the cordoned-off area and employed a no-fly zone around the site.

The substance is extremely shock-sensitive – knocking or grinding the powder can cause it to explode – and is also highly flammable. Even trained chemists have been injured while attempting to use it. Because of this, experts believe that a stabiliser was used to allow it to be transported.

Reid claimed that his explosives were obtained from a Czech or Slovak contact in Amsterdam. The source of the London bombers’ explosives is currently unknown, though Blair says that Pakistan is among the countries included in the search.


30 posted on 10/04/2005 9:15:46 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: Rockpile

"One of the most alarming attributes of TATP is that it cannot be detected by bomb-sniffing dogs, making it easier to smuggle into airports and onto airplanes."

I didnt know that - OK I can see where it's more of a threat than I thought.


31 posted on 10/04/2005 9:15:47 PM PDT by gondramB (Conservatism is a positive doctrine. Reactionaryism is a negative doctrine.)
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To: gondramB

TATP is what the London Underground bombers used.


32 posted on 10/04/2005 9:16:12 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Aren't the "reality-based community" folks the same ones who insist there is no objective reality?)
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To: defenderSD
It would be a good idea for you to not discuss HMTD on FR or anywhere else on the web (post #11).

It is relatively common knowledge to anyone who does anything but the barest research, nobody looks at FR for advice on explosive selection, and mentioning that it exists hurts nothing and nobody.

More succinctly, HMTD uses the same organic base as RDX (used in plastic explosives) and HMX, and anyone doing research on that family of explosives will see them linked -- Google returns 2000 results for an intersection of RDX and HMTD. Let's not over-react here.

33 posted on 10/04/2005 9:16:42 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: indcons; Cindy
indcons -please add me to your "Norman bombing" ping list, thanks.

Cindy - fyi ping to new info thread

34 posted on 10/04/2005 9:18:47 PM PDT by Oorang ( A great deal of talent is lost to the world for want of a little courage. -Goethe)
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To: hispanarepublicana

The peroxide group is quite unstable as are the idiots who play with them; but they are not WMDs by any stretch of the imagination.

Recipes are all over the internet for all sorts of destructive devices that can be made from household chemicals, if the security net is stretched to cover this panopoly of possibilities, we will have already lost the reason for winning the war.


35 posted on 10/04/2005 9:20:31 PM PDT by Old Professer (Fix the problem, not the blame!)
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To: MinuteGal; indcons

Leni, More information and a picture......You might want to get on Indcons ping list.


36 posted on 10/04/2005 9:20:43 PM PDT by hoosiermama
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To: thoughtomator

"TATP is what the London Underground bombers used."

I didn't realize that either. Apparently these decisions are being based on factors other than stable chemistry - I guess I was wrong.


37 posted on 10/04/2005 9:21:08 PM PDT by gondramB (Conservatism is a positive doctrine. Reactionaryism is a negative doctrine.)
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To: defenderSD

We adapt to information better than our enemy does. It is better that knowledge is out there.


38 posted on 10/04/2005 9:21:53 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Aren't the "reality-based community" folks the same ones who insist there is no objective reality?)
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To: Americanwolfsbrother
Unless you let the mixture sit around to long, then the slurry can become very unstable.

Eh? What is in your slurry that makes it unstable? AN in its various basic forms is very, very stable for long periods, hence its popularity. It is used as filler for gelpacks and slurries because it is very cheap, but AN is not the only ingredient in those.

They frequently spike slurries with other less stable explosives precisely because AN is a pain to set off, particularly in small charges. Raw AN is often classified as a tertiary explosive because it takes a fat high-explosive booster to get something resembling a proper detonation.

39 posted on 10/04/2005 9:22:35 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: gondramB
>> not something an Al Quaida cell is likely to choose.
 
Incorrect.
The Israelis are very familiar with TATP  - Mechanics of a living bomb
 

40 posted on 10/04/2005 9:23:30 PM PDT by VxH
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To: VxH

Yep, looks like my post was wrong. I was not aware that TATP is hard to detect.


41 posted on 10/04/2005 9:24:46 PM PDT by gondramB (Conservatism is a positive doctrine. Reactionaryism is a negative doctrine.)
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To: gondramB

These are people who don't value life, not even their own. Unstable is not a problem to them, as long as they can go out with a big bang. These are intelligent but not rational individuals driven by religious hate. Dying to advance the cause is among the greatest honors members of that cult can achieve. Given that this culture has already delivered to us the child suicide bomber, this is not particularly outrageous in the scope of activities that our enemies engage in.


42 posted on 10/04/2005 9:25:31 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Aren't the "reality-based community" folks the same ones who insist there is no objective reality?)
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To: gondramB
wikpedia on TATP, apparently used by terrorists.
43 posted on 10/04/2005 9:26:27 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: kcvl
kcvl,

Thanks for posting this:

"The delicate nature of TATP might warn off sensible people, but not terrorists. TATP comes with two big advantages. First of all, unlike other types of explosive, it cannot be detected by sniffer dogs, so it is easier to smuggle into airports and onto airplanes. The second advantage is one of the main reasons that this explosive is used at all - it is very easy to synthesise in clandestine labs.

On 7 July, four bomb blasts on London’s transport system killed at least 54 people and injured hundreds more. Evidence led investigators to search houses in Leeds, where three of the four suspected suicide bombers lived. In one house they found traces of triacetone triperoxide (TATP). The white crystalline powder is so unstable that police immediately widened the cordoned-off area and employed a no-fly zone around the site.

The substance is extremely shock-sensitive – knocking or grinding the powder can cause it to explode – and is also highly flammable. Even trained chemists have been injured while attempting to use it. Because of this, experts believe that a stabiliser was used to allow it to be transported.

Reid claimed that his explosives were obtained from a Czech or Slovak contact in Amsterdam. The source of the London bombers’ explosives is currently unknown, though Blair says that Pakistan is among the countries included in the search."

44 posted on 10/04/2005 9:26:28 PM PDT by The Westerner
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To: tortoise
Yeah, I know there's a lot of info out on the web about explosives. But if HMTD is "relatively common knowledge", then why did the London subway bombers use TATP if it is less stable as you say? Maybe it's not such common knowledge, and now you're putting information into the web that can be googled up in the future.

It's not a big deal, but it's wise to always consider who might use the information you put on the web and for what purpose. When you do a lot of posting on FR, it's easy to start unconsciously thinking that this is a closed network and only FReepers read your posts. Of course it is not, so I'm just suggesting that you always consider who outside of FR might read your posts. If there's no particular benefit to anyone from talking in detail about explosives or weapons, then why put that knowledge out on the web?

45 posted on 10/04/2005 9:27:48 PM PDT by defenderSD ("I am not a troll" said the troll as a thunderous Zot descended on him.)
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To: defenderSD

Well, I don't know which hall you were assigned to watch but I do know that if it comes down to even the least informed being the most concerned and the free dissemination of knowledge is compromised by the timorous, then I must conclude that the terrorists have won.


46 posted on 10/04/2005 9:31:05 PM PDT by Old Professer (Fix the problem, not the blame!)
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To: hispanarepublicana
"NORMAN, Okla. -- Sources confirmed Tuesday night that at least one of the components in the bomb used by Joel Henry Hinrichs III Saturday night was a product called TATP."

What they actually used it as it is supposed to be used...as a primer??

The London subway bombs were just pure primer TATP, yes?

47 posted on 10/04/2005 9:32:11 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: gondramB
I didnt know that - OK I can see where it's more of a threat than I thought.

A dirty secret is that there are a few families of lesser known high explosives that have completely different chemical signatures such that standard detection methods would not pick them up. Most detection methods depend on nitrogen compounds, which make up virtually all modern industrial and military explosives.

Fortunately, most terrorists buy this stuff rather than manufacture it, and even then it would take some technical competence to know how to defeat detection mechanisms as virtually all well known explosives are detectable. TATP is a lousy explosive, but happens to be in that very tiny family of peroxide explosives, a subset of which (like TATP) avoid conventional detection -- most organic peroxide explosives are so insanely unstable that they spontaneously and/or violently decompose on formation. There is only one organic peroxide I know of that has any plausible use as an explosive and TATP ain't it.

48 posted on 10/04/2005 9:33:06 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: indcons

Definitely indcons. Thank you very much... (o:


49 posted on 10/04/2005 9:34:23 PM PDT by LibertyRocks
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To: The Westerner
"First of all, unlike other types of explosive, it cannot be detected by sniffer dogs..."

Rank nonsense. Acetone emits a powerful smell, even in powdered form.

Most people know it by its more common name: nail polish remover.

Dogs can't smell it?! Oh, that's rich!

50 posted on 10/04/2005 9:36:54 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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