Posted on 10/29/2005 6:07:22 AM PDT by Pharmboy
HOUSTON, Oct. 28 - When she was growing up in a small town in southern Colorado, an area where her ancestors settled centuries ago when it was on the fringes of the northern frontier of New Spain, Bernadette Gonzalez always thought some of the stories about her family were unusual, if not bizarre.
Her grandmother, for instance, refused to travel on Saturday and would use a specific porcelain basin to drain blood out of meat before she cooked it. In one tale that particularly puzzled Ms. Gonzalez, 52, her grandfather called for a Jewish doctor to circumcise him while he was on his death bed in a hospital in Trinidad, Colo.
Only after Ms. Gonzalez moved to Houston to work as a lawyer and began discussing these tales with a Jewish colleague, she said, did "the pieces of the puzzle" start falling into place.
Ms. Gonzalez started researching her family history and concluded that her ancestors were Marranos, or Sephardic Jews, who had fled the Inquisition in Spain and in Mexico more than four centuries ago. Though raised in the Roman Catholic faith, Ms. Gonzalez felt a need to reconnect to her Jewish roots, so she converted to Judaism three years ago.
"I feel like I came home," said Ms. Gonzalez, who now often uses the first name Batya. "The fingerprints of my past were all around me, but I didn't know what they meant."
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Shouldn't post when I'm this tired.
"All you Jews get out and take your skills and technology with you. Oh, by the way, if you feel you can convert to Catholicism, you can leave." should have been, "All you Jews get out and take your skills and technology with you. Oh, by the way, if you feel you can convert to Catholicism, you can STAY."
"Convert or die." Was it also volunary for those converts?
No problem--I knew what you meant.
But it does beat the islamic 'Convert and be our slave forever or have your head lopped off'.
"Yes..."get out OR convert." That is a coerced conversion, unlike someone waking up one day to find Christ. It's not voluntary when put in those terms no matter how you slice it."
There was conceivably material advantage in converting, but they were perfectly free to take their stuff and move. Most of them did. The conversion business was an out intended for people who felt they could genuinely convert.
"Convert or die." Was it also volunary for those converts?"
I've seen those allegations made, but never convincingly. In the Catholic Church, a forced conversion doesn't even count.
No question about that...my only issue was the word "voluntary."
No...I never meant the "convert or die" comment to apply to Christians, and I should have been clear about that--sorry. That is what Islam has often done to Jews from its very outset.
From the Spanish version of the small Larousse encyclopedia:
Limpieza de sangre (HIST.), cualidad de descender exclusivamente de cristianos viejos, sin tener ningun antecesor judio, musulman ni penitenciado por la Inquisicion.
"Purity of blood" (hist.): quality of being descended exclusively from Old Christians, without having any ancestor (who was) Jewish, Muslim, or made to do penance by the Inquisition.
(The Inquisition sometimes imposed penitencia or public punishment on individuals found guilty.)
"That is what Islam has often done to Jews from its very outset."
That's pretty much the story of the first few hundred years.
I think it may have been Mark Twain who said that if people woke up some morning to discover that they were all the same race, color, and creed, they'd have something else to be prejudiced about before noon.
Is that anything like Roman Emperor Constantine waking up one morning and saying.. to all Romans.. "by the way you all must become 'christians' ".. (leaving was not offered)..
Sounds about as "voluntary" as our annual "ides of April" tribute.
"Stars on Thars..."
(Courtesy of 'Dr. Seuss'...)
"And it was *these* people that the Inquisition sought to uncover."
You're DEFENDING the inquisition here because it only sought to root out people who were pretendeding to be Catholic so they wouldn't be expelled from the country their family had lived in for quite a few generations? Eh?
"No person who could say, "Yes, I'm a Jew. Everbody knows it, and I've never pretended to be anything else," was ever touched by the Inquisition."
That's right, because people who said that were expelled.
"Oh, by the way, if you feel you can convert to Catholicism, you can STAY."
Interestingly, if they later decided your conversion was insincere, then they could imprison and possibly torture you, and/or take most of your valuable posessions and expell you.
The Christians had just finished expelling the Muslims from Spain, in a long and bloody conflict. They were concerned that the Jews who had lived under Islam might become a Fifth Column for the Muslims against the Christians
"You're DEFENDING the inquisition here because it only sought to root out people who were pretendeding to be Catholic so they wouldn't be expelled from the country their family had lived in for quite a few generations? Eh?"
So far, all I have defended is historical accuracy.
It's an interesting phenomenon: once a thing is demonized, you can be as extreme as you like in criticizing it, but if the historical reality is that it wasn't as bad as the most extreme accusations, people will accuse you of "defending" the thing.
The historian and author James Michener referred to the conventional wisdom regarding the Spanish Inquisition as "the black legend." And, indeed, it seems most people think it was far worse than ever it was.
People assume that millions were tortured and killed by the inquisition, when the real number is a few thousand over three hundred years. People assume that it was arbitrary and careless about standards of proof, reckless about accusations, merciless, and unwilling to fairly consider exculpatory evidence. The historical record (prior to PC rewriting) doesn't support that.
Further, the decision to expel the Jews was taken by F&I, not by the Inquisition.
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article2.html
I thought once Saved, always Saved. Is it possible to NOT be a Christian once you are Saved? I don't see a problem being a practicing Jew, but you can't just drop Christianity.
"Interestingly, if they later decided your conversion was insincere, then they could imprison and possibly torture you, and/or take most of your valuable posessions and expell you."
Check out the link in my last note.
It wasn't a matter of deciding that your conversion was insincere, it was a matter of proving in a court that you continued to practice Judaism while pretending to be a Catholic.
If that were proven, you could not only be imprisoned or tortured, you could be burned at the stake. However, if you confessed at the last minute, they would garotte you before the fires were lit, to spare you the flames.
Okay, we don't burn people at the stake any more. Back then, far worse deaths were common.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.