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Those Defensive Darwinists
The Seattle Times ^ | 11/21/05 | Jonathon Witt

Posted on 11/22/2005 12:44:07 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

THE first court trial over the theory of intelligent design is now over, with a ruling expected by the end of the year. What sparked the legal controversy? Before providing two weeks of training in modern evolutionary theory, the Dover, Pa., School District briefly informed students that if they wanted to learn about an alternative theory of biological origins, intelligent design, they could read a book about it in the school library.

In short order, the School District was dragged into court by a group insisting the school policy constituted an establishment of religion, this despite the fact that the unmentionable book bases its argument on strictly scientific evidence, without appealing to religious authority or attempting to identify the source of design.

The lawsuit is only the latest in a series of attempts to silence the growing controversy over contemporary Darwinian theory.

For instance, after The New York Times ran a series on Darwinism and design recently, prominent Darwinist Web sites excoriated the newspaper for even covering intelligent design, insulting its proponents with terms like Medievalist, Flat-Earther and "American Taliban."

University of Minnesota biologist P.Z. Myers argues that Darwinists should take an even harder line against their opponents: "Our only problem is that we aren't martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough," he wrote. "The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many school board members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians."

This month, NPR reported on behavior seemingly right out of the P.Z. Myers playbook.

The most prominent victim in the story was Richard Sternberg, a scientist with two Ph.D.s in evolutionary biology and former editor of a journal published out of the Smithsonian's Museum of Natural History. He sent out for peer review, then published, a paper arguing that intelligent design was the best explanation for the geologically sudden appearance of new animal forms 530 million years ago.

The U.S. Office of Special Counsel reported that Sternberg's colleagues immediately went on the attack, stripping Sternberg of his master key and access to research materials, spreading rumors that he wasn't really a scientist and, after determining that they didn't want to make a martyr out of him by firing him, deliberately creating a hostile work environment in the hope of driving him from the Smithsonian.

The NPR story appalled even die-hard skeptics of intelligent design, people like heavyweight blogger and law professor Glenn Reynolds, who referred to the Smithsonian's tactics as "scientific McCarthyism."

Also this month, the Kansas Board of Education adopted a policy to teach students the strengths and weaknesses of modern evolutionary theory. Darwinists responded by insisting that there are no weaknesses, that it's a plot to establish a national theocracy — despite the fact that the weaknesses that will be taught come right out of the peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific literature.

One cause for their insecurity may be the theory's largely metaphysical foundations. As evolutionary biologist A.S. Wilkins conceded, "Evolution would appear to be the indispensable unifying idea and, at the same time, a highly superfluous one."

And in the September issue of The Scientist, National Academy of Sciences member Philip Skell argued that his extensive investigations into the matter corroborated Wilkins' view. Biologist Roland Hirsch, a program manager in the U.S. Office of Biological and Environmental Research, goes even further, noting that Darwinism has made a series of incorrect predictions, later refashioning the paradigm to fit the results.

How different from scientific models that lead to things like microprocessors and satellites. Modern evolutionary theory is less a cornerstone and more the busybody aunt — into everyone's business and, all the while, very much insecure about her place in the home.

Moreover, a growing list of some 450 Ph.D. scientists are openly skeptical of Darwin's theory, and a recent poll by the Louis Finkelstein Institute found that only 40 percent of medical doctors accept Darwinism's idea that humans evolved strictly through unguided, material processes.

Increasingly, the Darwinists' response is to try to shut down debate, but their attempts are as ineffectual as they are misguided. When leaders in Colonial America attempted to ban certain books, people rushed out to buy them. It's the "Banned in Boston" syndrome.

Today, suppression of dissent remains the tactic least likely to succeed in the United States. The more the Darwinists try to prohibit discussion of intelligent design, the more they pique the curiosity of students, parents and the general public.


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: darwin; evolutionism; intelligentdesign
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To: Stingy Dog

Sir, I am beyond joking with you. I am in an interracial marriage, and I am also part Jewish. I take Sam Francis racist and anti-semitic crap seriously. Either you come clean, or I will consider you no better than David Duke.


341 posted on 11/22/2005 8:44:05 PM PST by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: RunningWolf
What I want to know.. is where is all of the science? I keep getting accused of never addressing the science from the 'scientists'. But I never see any science, but they insist that its there.

You can start by doing a search on this thread for "Ichneumon", and stop on any post that is more than one screenful (and contains stuff that doesn't look very familiar to you). Click on the links. That should keep you busy for a while. If not, check Patrick Henry's List-o-links (there is a post linking that somewhere in here). Once you get through with that, try www.talkorigins.org. That one ought to keep you busy for about six months.

How's that? (If you need actual hyperlinks, I can do that, but I'm not very good at it and it takes a while).

342 posted on 11/22/2005 8:47:56 PM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: Stingy Dog
I thought I had revitalized the thread. :)

I believe that the word that you are looking for is "fertilized". :-)

343 posted on 11/22/2005 8:49:19 PM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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Comment #344 Removed by Moderator

To: CarolinaGuitarman

Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
Of or relating to a deity.
Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
Of or relating to the miraculous.

That's a dictionary definition, and it does not say a thing about "outside of our ability to observe, test, and replicate." It may imply as much, but scince science is "agnostic," it cannot be ruled out. Maybe we can't observe it now. That doesn't mean we never can or will.

Intelligent design is not by definition "supernatural." Intelligent design is well within the grasp of science and in fact exemplifies what science is about. The first hypothesis could not be made without intelligent design. It is not unreasonable or unscientific to attribute predictable processes to the result of intelligent design.

You'll have the strain the meaning of science beyond usefulness or reject large portions of evolutionist thinking if you honestly think intelligent design is unworthy of scientific merit and subject to pure speculation about the "supernatural."

The evidence for intelligent design is largely, if not completely, circumstantial, inferential evidence. That does not make it "unscientific."


345 posted on 11/22/2005 8:51:44 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: RunningWolf
2ndreconmarine said it best when he so proudly listed off Horse poop: 929 citations.

Given your level of English usage, you perhaps still do not understand the original point.

I will try to spell it out. The comparison to horse feces was that it was better than ID. The idea wasn't that horse feces was a particularly good study in science. Indeed, it was chosen for precisely the opposite effect. Only that the most silly and ridiculous items, horse feces, diaper rash, and Voodoo, still are better than ID.

If you want real science, then go back to the original thread, here,, and read the citations: natural selection” about 14,000 references, “Mutation” gets 40,000. “Speciation” gets 5,000. “Human origins” gets 22,000.

At least try to read something!!!!!

346 posted on 11/22/2005 8:52:26 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Stingy Dog
Show us ONE post you have ever made that has addressed the science of evolution. Put up or shut up.

Ha, SHOW ME ONE POST WHERE YOU have ever made that has addressed the science of evolution. Oh thats right you can't.

Now I don't need any quotes dog did or did not make.

Oooohh... so thats it, Yus' guys are on a crusade!!

Well thanks, we all knew it but now you finally got it all out there in the open.

Getting that from the great minds cult of cosmo-evo evo-cosmo cult of the flying spaghetti monster has been more work than whipping up a new transitional fossil.

Wolf
347 posted on 11/22/2005 8:56:10 PM PST by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Probably because it's in his nature not to his advantage.


348 posted on 11/22/2005 8:56:20 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Stingy Dog

Staying on topic means "getting defensive." That's why an old objectionable quote from your home page means more, and is more demonstrative of the point at hand, than a cogent argument as to why evolutionism is the only point of view worthy of consideration by "true science."


349 posted on 11/22/2005 8:56:46 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Cicero; Ichneumon
It wan't just the Pope:

People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.... This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth. -- Martin Luther

Source

350 posted on 11/22/2005 8:57:49 PM PST by Virginia-American
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Comment #351 Removed by Moderator

To: RunningWolf
Now I don't need any quotes dog did or did not make.

Then you're being foolish. You see quotes from Sam Francis posted at sites like Stormfront. We don't need that kind of crap around here.

352 posted on 11/22/2005 8:59:19 PM PST by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: Stingy Dog; CarolinaGuitarman
I have never posted it on the threads.

I don't recall you ever posting it on the threads either. However, when this whole thing started, I clicked on your screen name and saw it in your profile page. That was a while ago, and I honestly don't know why it is such a big deal now. I also do not know why you are denying it was on your profile page, when so many have seen it. Have you been taking lessons from the creationist witnesses in the Dover case?

353 posted on 11/22/2005 8:59:37 PM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
"That's a dictionary definition, and it does not say a thing about "outside of our ability to observe, test, and replicate."

But all of those examples you gave ARE outside our ability to observe, test, and replicate. And what about the FIRST example you gave?

"Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces. "

If something violates or goes beyond natural forces, there is no way to test it. It is by definition outside of science.

"Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
Of or relating to the miraculous. "

If something is a miracle, it is by definition outside of natural processes and is therefore outside of the province of science.

"Intelligent design is not by definition "supernatural."

Yes it is, it postulates causes which have not and CAN not be observed. That's considered one of it's virtues by ID'ers.

"The evidence for intelligent design is largely, if not completely, circumstantial, inferential evidence. That does not make it "unscientific."

It is entirely nonexistent.
354 posted on 11/22/2005 9:00:09 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: 2ndreconmarine
I read it just fine.

I disagree with your conclusions!! Which are ridiculous on their own, and I will get back to you later.

Wolf
355 posted on 11/22/2005 9:00:24 PM PST by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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Comment #356 Removed by Moderator

To: CarolinaGuitarman

Ha. We can always define the supernatural down, can't we? Why, "supernatural" is everything we can't explain by natural causes. Well, science is always defining the supernatural. Once its defined by science, it's "natural." The term is more arbitrary than the word "species."


357 posted on 11/22/2005 9:03:57 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: RunningWolf
" Ha, SHOW ME ONE POST WHERE YOU have ever made that has addressed the science of evolution. Oh thats right you can't."

Here:

""...since no one was around, it's all theories/speculation."

A scientific theory is not *speculation*. I am sure you have already been told this already. There is no hierarchy from theory to *law*. Theory is the last step.

"Credible science includes the scientific method---the ability for anybody to reproduce the "test" and have the same effect."

That assumes you are not talking about an historical science.
Evolution IS tested though, every time a fossil is exhumed and every time two genomes are compared. Natural selection is tested all the time in the lab, with repeatable results. Common descent is tested and affirmed with tests on ERV's in humans and other primates. You need to brush up on your science education."

I've showed one of mine, show yours Wolfie. Or shut up.
358 posted on 11/22/2005 9:04:21 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Stingy Dog
The fact is that most PhDs assert that macro evolution is impossible and, therefore, according to these PhDs, the odds are against evolution.

Please give a citatoin for this.

359 posted on 11/22/2005 9:05:47 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Liberal Classic
Who is he, and where's the quote?

And there is plenty of crap around here. This 'appeal to authority' on academic degrees is bogus too.

Also I don't need any quotes from anyone else. I will choose my own thank you.

Wolf
360 posted on 11/22/2005 9:05:54 PM PST by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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