President Putin awards the primate of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church

Intefax ^ | 23 November 2005

[lizol]

Eastern European ping list

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FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list

[jb6]

ping

[lizol]

Ping.

Must be a genuine Ukrainian patriot (sarcasm)

[marron]

In his position, the only question that matters is, not whether he's a patriot, but if he's a Christian. If he is, the rest doesn't matter. And if he isn't, the rest doesn't matter.

[maestro]

Don't miss the JFK series to be shown this coming Saturday (Nov. 26th, 2005) on the DISCOVERY channel.

[lizol]

And you really believe, that this is about Christianity only, not about politics?

Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Victor Chernomyrdin presented Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev and All Ukraine with the Order of Honour in recognition of his services in the development of religious and cultural traditions and consolidation of Russia-Ukrainian relations.

As the press service of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has reported on Wednesday, Chernomyrdin noted in his speech the outstanding role that Metropolitan Vladimir played in the spiritual revival of the Ukrainian and Russian peoples and consolidation of friendship and cooperation between the two fraternal nations.

If you do, then let me not agree with you.

[Mazepa]

I have nothing good to say about this "canonical" KGB outfit. I'm still fighting with my cousin who decided to marry in that church (happened to be the only church in the village).

[marron]

And you really believe, that this is about Christianity only, not about politics?

I couldn't possibly be well informed enough to know the answer, which is why I raise the issue. It seems probable that Chernomyrdin is motivated by politics.

My question is, what motivates the Primate?

Chernomyrdin noted in his speech the outstanding role that Metropolitan Vladimir played in the spiritual revival of the Ukrainian and Russian peoples

Has there been a spiritual revival among the Ukrainians and Russians? Has the UO Church played a significant role in this? Is the Primate a man of God or is he just a church bureaucrat? You are closer to the scene than am I.

[lizol]

You know, there are 2 Orthodox Churches in Ukraine (plus Greek Catholic Church, which is a different thing).

One is affiliated with Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church - this is this canonical one, as it is recognized by the rest of Orthodoxy.

The second one is independent from Russia.

And when Russian politicians honor the leader of the Church, which cheers deep relations between Ukraine and Russia - - somehow I can't oppose the impression, that politics is deeply involved here.

But maybe Mazepa can answer to your questions - he's Ukrainian.

[A. Pole]

One is affiliated with Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church - this is this canonical one, as it is recognized by the rest of Orthodoxy.

The second one is independent from Russia.

So the second one is schismatic like the Polish National Catholic Church.

[peter the great]

The Church that is affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate or in communion with The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is also in communion with the Orthodox Church in America and most of the other Orthodox Churches worldwide. You must remember Christ is what unites all of us not politics. As for Russian politicians honoring leaders of the Church politics has very little to do with this if you think it is something about the Church itself. You must keep in mind that the Church is growing in Russia and the Ukraine at a phenomenal rate and a rather large constituency is represented here and I could go on.

[mym]

==Must be a genuine Ukrainian patriot (sarcasm)==

You wrongly think that only Ukranian patriots who are anti-russian. Luckily most of Ukrainians think different. Metropolitan Vladimir's patriotism is in consolidation of Russia and Ukraine.

[x5452]

The KGB hasn't existed for about 10 years.

[Mazepa]

Who told you that? The name just changed. If Buckwheat Joe started calling himself John Kerry, has there been a significant change?

[Mazepa]

So the second one is schismatic like the Polish National Catholic Church.

That's the Russian Church propoganda, along with Ukraine (even if there is such a thing) +Russia= ONE "Russian" people. Ukraine used to have its own church- it wasn't subservient to Moscow. But then in 17th cent. as Russians began destroying institutions of ukrainian independence, they done away with our church. In 1991 Ukraine got its political independence from Russia, but the Russian Orthodox Church stayed.

The major step is the getting the Greeks to recognize Ukr. Ortho. Church- continue the talks they had some months ago.

[Mazepa]

One thing that I find offensive is how can this Russian syndicate be called a "Church". Alexei, current head, was a KGB asset. And God knows (pun intended) how many others. Think about it- you go to a priest for a confession and by tomorrow it'll be in a report. It's despicable. There's no way around it.
In USSR, up till 80s the churches out there that were still standing, almost ALL were Russian Orthodox while Greek Catholics and independent Ukrainian Orthodox were praying in the woods.

Then there's the behaviour of the "church", it's "christian values" like demonization of other religions. It's incredibly xenophobic. Just look at the behaviour of the two heads, Alexei and John Paul II. One is embracing Jews and Muslims, extending a hand to the Orthodox rite. The other is telling him to get lost and not to "invade" rightfully HIS (!!!!) territory (reference to JP2 visit to Ukraine in 2000 and the reaction of the ROC).

ROC has no business in Ukraine. It's more interested in promoting Moscow's agenda on the FOREIGN Ukrainian soil than saving souls. Like during the presidential elections last year- official heads of the 'church' in Ukraine were calling Yuschenko a demon- quite something.

Holy people my behind.

[Mazepa]

You wrongly think that only Ukranian patriots who are anti-russian. Luckily most of Ukrainians think different. Metropolitan Vladimir's patriotism is in consolidation of Russia and Ukraine.

Most Ukrainians are indifferent. If there is church nearby, they go to that one (which thanks to the Soviets happen to be Russian Orthodox). In the towns and cities there are more options.

[A. Pole]

That's the Russian Church propoganda, along with Ukraine (even if there is such a thing) +Russia= ONE "Russian" people. Ukraine used to have its own church- it wasn't subservient to Moscow.

This is very interesting. So you are saying that there were TWO Orthodox Churches among Eastern Slavs, one Russian and one Ukrainian? Were the Novgorod Christians part of the Ukrainian Church or Russian one? When was the baptism of Rusia and when was the baptism of Ukraine? Was the church of Nowgorod the separate third Church, if so, when she came into being?

But then in 17th cent. as Russians began destroying institutions of ukrainian independence, they done away with our church.

How could they do it? Ukraine was under POLISH rule at that time!

In 1991 Ukraine got its political independence from Russia, but the Russian Orthodox Church stayed.

"Russian Orthodox Church stayed"? WHat do you mean?

The major step is the getting the Greeks to recognize Ukr. Ortho. Church- continue the talks they had some months ago.

So the Church of Greece does not recognized "Ukr. Ortho. Church"? Why is that so? I looked at offical web site of the Church of Greece. It looks that Greeks have excellent relationships with the Russian Church, what were "the talks they had some months ago" about? Who were the sides in these talks?

[A. Pole]

Most Ukrainians are indifferent.

You mean that people like you are a minority? What about Lvov area? What is your attitude to the Uniate Church (under Pope)?